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Post by WelshChappie on Jun 7, 2014 15:46:47 GMT -8
Was thinking earlier about the seeming lack of investigation done on the part of the SFPD in the aftermath of Paul's murder. in regards to where Paul encounter's his fatal customer. We know that the pick up location was somewhere on or near Mason & Geary streets, which is in the middle of Downtown San Fran and it's Theatre District at 21:45 (9:45pm).
Surely at that time of evening, in such a populated and popular area, there were other people on the street and probably waiting themselves for a cab after coming out of one of the many theatres, and if so, surely someone, most likely several people, saw a man hail a cab from the area of Mason and Geary that they recognized as the same man portrayed in the Presidio Sketch? I mean, did the police even go to the area of Mason & Geary and speak with the regular Theatre goers? Did they speak with all other cabbies that were on duty that night in downtown San Fran to see if any other drivers were approached by a white male who said he was wanting to go to Pacific Heights and Washington and Maple area, but the cabbie couldn't because he had just had a radio dispatch to elsewhere?
Zodiac wiped down Paul's driver side door after he had execute him, does that mean when he walked up to Paul's cab to ask if he could take him to Wasington & Maple that the Zodiac opened Paul's drivers door and knew, therefore, his prints would be there? Why else would he wipe the handle to the drivers door down? If he spoke to Stine via his open drivers door then that would be easier for possible witnesses to recall.
There is just no way in my opinion he can hail a cab in such a populated area at peak time of likely activity and do so right on the side of a busy street and have nobody see him and remember when seeing the news the next day that a cab driver was shot dead in Presidio Heights, then followed by the composite, and nobody watching the news get chills and turn to teir friend or partner and say something like: "Oh my God...it's him. That's the guy who I saw hailing a cab at Mason that night, he came out of the same play we were watching. I remember him because he opened the drivers door when the cab stopped and spoke to the driver before he got in. That sketch is certainly him, down to the thick black horn rim glasses" for example.
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Post by Ricardo on Jun 7, 2014 22:18:57 GMT -8
Usually, it is easy to get a ride in one of the many cabs parked in front of the Westin St. Francis hotel at Union Square in San Francisco.
Anyone can just walk up to one of the cabs parked there and ask for a ride.
So it is possible that he did not call attention to himself and went unnoticed.
If there was a witness who saw him get in the cab, then maybe that is the reason for the claim that he rode in the front seat of the cab.
The police would keep information about any possible witness confidential.
How do we know the Zodiac killer was wearing the glasses when he got in the cab?
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 12, 2014 16:47:22 GMT -8
I am still shocked somewhat at the lack of witnesses to either see the Zodiac get in to Paul's cab, or witness Paul driving with his passenger en-route from Geary to Cherry. I mean Cab drivers get to know so many people by the nature of their jobs, and nobody saw Paul that night for the 10 minute, 3 mile journey. Well, forget even knowing Paul personally, nobody came forward as a witness to say they'd see the cab pass them on Washington st for example.
I was sat thinking to myself the other night just wondering what, if anything, the conversation was between Paul & Z. I also though about a lot of 'What if's' & 'If Only's.'
What if Don would have stopped and got out that night and conducted a search of the White Male on Jackson?
If only Zodiac's gun jammed as he placed the barrel against Paul's ear and pulled the trigger.
What if Don or Eric simply asked the White Male to produce ID so they could check back with him as a potential witness at a later time or day?
If only Paul had survived his wound and made a full recovery, we'd have another 'Bryan Hartnell' so to speak as far as witness testimony goes only Paul spoke to his killer and sat with him for 10 mins while Zodiac was not masked and Paul could clearly see his face.
All what if's.
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Post by Ricardo on Jul 12, 2014 22:54:31 GMT -8
I think about a lot of these “What If” questions, too.
Maybe there was someone who saw the Zodiac killer get into Paul Stine’s cab. Maybe that is the reason that the police think the Zodiac killer sat in the front seat?
I have been to Presidio Heights and it is usually quiet at night. The Zodiac killer probably chose the location for that reason.
If Paul Stine was acquainted with the Zodiac killer, then there would have been a conversation. Otherwise, probably not.
I do not think Officer Don Fouke had any reason to search the white male on Jackson Street that night.
If the Zodiac killer’s gun had jammed on that night, did he have another gun to use? Or a knife?
I do not understand the encounter between the officers and the white male that night. Why wouldn’t they have warned any passerby that someone had been shot on a nearby street?
If Paul Stine had survived, then maybe the murderer would have been caught except he would never have been identified as the Zodiac killer. Remember, the Zodiac killer waited a couple of days before sending the blood stained piece of shirt to prove that he committed the murder.
What if the Zodiac killer had never sent any letters? Would any of the murders have been linked?
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Post by MikeR on Jul 13, 2014 9:24:31 GMT -8
Hi-
Had Z not written or called, only the Vallejo crimes would have been obviously similar. I can't see how LB and, especially, PH would have been linked. Even though LB was a couple being attacked, the bizarre get up would have put it in its own league.
Mike
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 14, 2014 3:47:41 GMT -8
"Maybe there was someone who saw the Zodiac killer get into Paul Stine’s cab. Maybe that is the reason that the police think the Zodiac killer sat in the front seat?"
As far as I am aware the reason police suspect Zodiac may have been in the front seat is two fold. The first reason is the three teen witnesses. When they first looked out and spotted the cab the driver was slumped over the lap of someone in the passenger seat who was leaning over him and rummaging through the pockets of the driver. The second reason is the size 7 black leather gloves. These were found on the floor of the passenger side of the cab.
Me personally, I don't think Zodiac travelled up front and my reasons for this are that Zodiac appeared to fear male to male confrontation. Zodiac would not approach Bryan Hartnell until he was incapacitated and could not challenge him physically. Also, Zodiac focused on, and tried to execute, Mageau as soon as he approached Dee's car and himself admitted in a letter "When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time thus spoiling my aim."
If Zodiac travelled up front with Paul then this would eliminate the possibility of a blitz style shot fired from the blind side and would mean Zodiac would potentially face a confrontation and/or struggle with his target. Paul would have had to stop his cab and even if he isn't looking directly at Zodiac, could certainly see him through his peripheral vision. Zodiac was a coward and if he had the option of face to face confrontation with another male or a sneaky blindsided attack, then for me he's always going to opt for the latter of these two options.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 14, 2014 18:01:02 GMT -8
I think about a lot of these “What If” questions, too. Maybe there was someone who saw the Zodiac killer get into Paul Stine’s cab. Maybe that is the reason that the police think the Zodiac killer sat in the front seat? I have been to Presidio Heights and it is usually quiet at night. The Zodiac killer probably chose the location for that reason. If Paul Stine was acquainted with the Zodiac killer, then there would have been a conversation. Otherwise, probably not. I do not think Officer Don Fouke had any reason to search the white male on Jackson Street that night.If the Zodiac killer’s gun had jammed on that night, did he have another gun to use? Or a knife?
I do not understand the encounter between the officers and the white male that night. Why wouldn’t they have warned any passerby that someone had been shot on a nearby street?
If Paul Stine had survived, then maybe the murderer would have been caught except he would never have been identified as the Zodiac killer. Remember, the Zodiac killer waited a couple of days before sending the blood stained piece of shirt to prove that he committed the murder.
What if the Zodiac killer had never sent any letters? Would any of the murders have been linked?
In regards to the highlighted Comment you made above Rick.... Really? Yes, if you believe the official version, Fouke had been given the incorrect race of the suspect to be on the lookout for and told to BOLO for a Black Male Adult and the guy in question here was White but let's look what, in Fouke's own words, this White guy did that night.
Don and Eric are approaching Maple Intersection via Jackson Street and slow to a crawl as Don's attention has been grabbed by a White Male walking down Jackson, away from the direction of where the homicide has just happened, and the White Guy looks up, see's Don's police car approaching and immediately put's his head down to avoid his face being seen. Not suspicious enough to warrant a stop and search? Ok, what does White Guy do after putting is head down? He turns onto the next available set of steps that lead to a pathway to a residence and thus meaning now that when Don passes by the White Male, the guy is going to have his back to them facing away and thus possibly concealing any visible red stain's on his jacket/trousers.
So while I agree with you in principle that strictly speaking, Don had no cause or reason to search the guy because he was not Black, I cannot agree that Don had absolutely no reason or grounds to stop him and search him based on the Man's own actions which were to instantly avoid eye contact before appearing to take evasive action in order to avoid encountering you and your patrol car. If that's not acting suspicious, then I don't know what is?
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Post by Ricardo on Jul 14, 2014 19:33:15 GMT -8
WC,
In the United States, there was a court case called Terry V. Ohio in 1968 which set the law regarding police searches
Because the suspect was not believed to be a white male at the time that the police officers saw the white male on Jackson Street that night, it would have been against the law for them to search the white male.
I wish they had talked more with the white male, at least to ask for his name.
I still do not understand why they would not have warned any passerby that someone had been shot on the nearby street.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 15, 2014 9:52:25 GMT -8
Rick said:
"WC,
In the United States, there was a court case called Terry V. Ohio in 1968 which set the law regarding police searches
Because the suspect was not believed to be a white male at the time that the police officers saw the white male on Jackson Street that night, it would have been against the law for them to search the white male."
Wasn't aware of that law. The law over here in the United Kingdom of Great Britain (:-)) says, and has for many many years now, that a person has every right to refuse to give police their details if requested if that person has not been seen acting suspicious nor is suspected of having committed a crime or there is ground to believe the are going to, then the person has the right to refuse giving their name and details to police nor be searched by police. Straight forward enough, if nobody has phoned 999/911 and given your description in association with a crime happening, and/or your not doing anything to cause alarm or distress to members of the public then the police are still well within their right to ask you your details, but you have every right to refuse..... in theory. Lol. Why in theory? Cause that 'right to remain anonymous' never seems to work. Once a cop asks you what your name is and you say "Not telling you Mr Blue Pig" then what happens is is that the police then use the very fact you don't wish to give them your name as their grounds for suspicion and then they say that they now suspect you may be wanted on warrant so this very right we are said to have to not give them your name, is the very thing the police (over here at least anyway) use as 'suspicious' and 'Grounds for arrest if you fail to provide the your details.
Anyway, got off track there slightly there but the point I am intending to make is that while they may have no right to stop and search A white Male if they have been told the suspect was Black in regards to this crime specifically, but surely Don could have justified a stop and request of details from the White Guy by declaring that he had not stopped this white guy in relation to the crime for which he was responding to that area, but that he had, in fact, stopped the man based on that man's own highly suspicious attempts to hide his face by looking down, turning into a driveway so he wouldn't have to face police or risk walking past them and their vehicle right next to him. Surely Don could say "I was responding to a reported car driver assault/robbery/homicide initially yes, but en-route I noticed a man acting highly strange and almost seemed to panic when he saw my patrol car approaching and put his head down and turned up a set of steps with his back now to us. That seemed like he didn't want me to see his face by putting his head down and didn't want to walk past my patrol car and took evasive measures to avowing having to. This to me was suspicious and given the affluent area that this occurred in, I suspected he may be up to no good and that is my reason, the man's own panic like response to my police car, for stopping and searching him."
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Post by WelshChappie on Mar 13, 2015 15:40:59 GMT -8
Anyway, back to Paul and his picking up of his final passenger.
That night, as Paul arrived in the general area of the Theatre District, he was immediately given a job by the dispatcher to head over to 500 Ninth Avenue, located in the Richmond District area of San Fran. So, at this point it is theorized that Paul picks up Zodiac as a customer who just so happens to be wanting togo to the Richmond Area himself which is great for Paul as he can squeeze an extra fare in on the way to the next dispatched job. But is this really plausible? This would mean that the sequence of events went:
21:45 Approx. Paul arrives in Downtown San Fran and just as he does, is immediately told to head to 500 Ninth Ave. With Pick up waiting in Richmond District, Paul stops for everyone that extends their thumb until he finally comes across a person who wants to go the same way that Paul has to go because he's been dispatched there. Would he likely stop and ask all potential clients "Where you going" until one said 'Richmond Area?' Possible yes, likely....Not sure.
Now there is, of course, a blatantly more obvious and likely answer as to how and/or why Paul came to scoop the Zodiac off the sidewalk..... He knew him. Paul, on his way to the next job, see's UN-SUB1 and knows he either lives in the Pacific Heights area or at the very least, will likely want to head over there and that's why Paul stops for him?
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