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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 8, 2014 23:46:41 GMT -8
A leading expert on Cipher codes and their construction/decoding, Professor Craig Bauer, giving a lecture in which he discusses the Zodiac Ciphers. Link below & Zodiac Ciphers start at 12:30 into the clip.
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 9, 2014 5:52:16 GMT -8
It's always troubled me that the FBI, NAVY, and CIA, all with their expert cryptographers respectively. could not crack the code and find this ciphers key and along comes Donny and using the logic of "The killers ego will likely mean the first word will be I" decodes it relatively easily. It's not only that that doesn't make sense but also, I know I said this elsewhere but it flaws Don's claims of how it was decoeded, he stated, as Robert Graysmith recalled on an episode of Cold Case Files that Harden looked for double symbols and knew that, based on double L being the most common in the English Language along with this man's propensity to kill that the double symbols are all 'Kill' or 'Killing.' That's just simply not possible due to the author using several symbols to represent the letter L, which meant he didn't use the same symbol twice to enable any person to know that there would be double L there. For example, in the first line he writes 'I Like killing... The two L's in killing are both representeed by a different substituted letter or symbol, specifically the first being the letter B, the second L being a half shaded square box symbol as seen below: (Click line of cipher to enlarge) ' Put simply, the way Harden claims he cracked the code and discovered the Key, it's just not possible to do it. As shown above, Zodiac used different symbols to represent the double L's so looking at the cipher as it published would give absolutely no clue or hint that a double lettered word was hiding under the cryptic symbols. If he had used the same symbol for the letter L all the way through the cipher, then it would have been easy for a lot of people to crack it, especially the Naval Intelligence Dpt's Cryptography experts.
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Post by Ricardo on Oct 26, 2014 20:45:18 GMT -8
Then it would seem that the Zodiac killer did not intend for the 408-symbol to be solved easily.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 2, 2014 18:40:45 GMT -8
Then it would seem that the Zodiac killer did not intend for the 408-symbol to be solved easily. I agree. CIA professional cryptographers: Stumped. FBI Code Breakers: No Idea. Naval Experts in De-Ciphering Ciphers: Failed to crack the Ciphers key code. Don Harden, man with book: Successfully Deciphered the entire Code & it's message. Method of decoding applied: Science of Wild guessing, just randomly making assumption after assumption hoping your assuming correctly & the first word, 'I', would be the first letter of the 3 part Cipher. Once achieved, then the rest magically deciphers itself thereafter. He not only seems to have guessed the correct word/letter at the opening ofthe message but he also, somehow, knew which of the three sections of the code was the one that began the message! Mr Harden's then wife Bettye would go on to write on the back inside cover of Robert Graysmiths book 'Zodiac' that the author's book is partly fact & lot of fiction before Bettye H inflroms anyone who cares to read her comments that, quote: "This is my story! I started the Zodiac case, and ended it. The last half of this book is theory. When I write the true ending it will shake the Earth! Signed: Betty J Harden" To me this statement is self-incriminating & implies the person writing such a statement knows a lot more than he or she has let be known publicly & when she does.... The revelation will Shake the very Foundations of Society.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 3, 2014 14:05:05 GMT -8
Hi- If you look at the third section of the code, Z does use two similar semaphore flag symbols next to one another and the triangle preceding them as "ILL" in "WILL". This might have confirmed the beginning of the code using a triangle for "I". And all that without Harden having to be Z. Mike
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 4, 2014 14:49:45 GMT -8
Hi- If you look at the third section of the code, Z does use two similar semaphore flag symbols next to one another and the triangle preceding them as "ILL" in "WILL". This might have confirmed the beginning of the code using a triangle for "I". And all that without Harden having to be Z. Mike Ok even if we assume that is true & the method used to crack the Ciphers code, how did Harden know which of the three parts of the cipher was the one that was the first eight lines? It's ok to say "Well Don said to himself that the first word is going to be 'I', but there are three parts that each contain eight lines. He would have had to rely on random chance & guessed that the first word will be 'I', then surmise that the two symbols that look quite similar were both representative of the same letter, that being 'L'. Then he would have picked, again at random, the correct piece of cipher that contained the first eight lines because there would simply be no way of knowing which order the three parts were to be in. And I just can't see, maybe even accept the idea, that the FBI cryptography experts, Naval Code Breakers which are the elite of the elite could not crack this code, not even one section of the three & yet here comes Don Harden with his copy of Fletcher Pratt's 'Secret & Urgent' and in three short days deciphers the code. I don't think D.H is/was Zodiac, but I wouldn't rule out the concept of him knowing who the Z is/was. I am on the fence, so to speak, on whether he knew before-hand what the Cipher message said or whether he did what he said he did & cracked it by guess work.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 6, 2014 15:26:01 GMT -8
Hi Welsh,
Having the idea to look for I was the difficult part. After that, everything falls into place. You don't have to know which section is first! You can assume ALL of them are. But you then try substituting the letter "I" for the "open triangle," the "backwards C" and the "N", which start the three sections. Then it is a little trial and error that really gets rewarded in about ten minutes.
When you do get to "open triangle" is "I" you start looking for the "ILL" patterns and in that third section you find on line 4 "open triangle, "semaphore flag" "colored in square." Both of the last tow closely resemble each other. So you try that combo as "ILL" and when you go back to section 1, you see that right next to the "open triangle" that you are theorizing is an "I" is a "semaphore flag" and now you have "IL" or "I L" and, as RG says in the movie, you're on your way.
I'm not saying this was easy but once you have that brilliant idea of forcing the solution by looking for "KILL" and/or looking for "I" as the first letter of the message, you have done the hardest part in getting started, IMHO. Full credit to them for having that breakthrough in reasoning.
Mike
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Post by Norse on Nov 6, 2014 15:58:17 GMT -8
I seem to have read somewhere that the FBI didn't actually look at the 408 (at least not formally) until after the Hardens had solved it. Could be a case of slow working bureaucracy more than anything else. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily assume that the FBI tried to solve it and failed - only for the Hardens to save the day, so to speak. Just my opinion.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 6, 2014 18:42:27 GMT -8
Hi-
Well, an article said that the Hardens' solution was sent to the FBI for "verification" or something like that, implying that the Bureau was simply confirming their work when there is no proof that the FBI had independently solved it prior to the Hardens doing so.
Mike
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Post by Norse on Nov 7, 2014 5:02:55 GMT -8
That's what I've read too - yes. But the fact that they didn't solve it independently doesn't mean they never would have - which is my point. I'm no expert on ciphers but from what I can gather the 408 is very much solvable, so to speak. In other words, it's perhaps not unreasonable to surmise that the authorities would have cracked it sooner or later without the Hardens' help. That doesn't diminish the role they played, of course.
It's a bit unclear, this thing - but it would appear that the police sent the cipher to the navy initially, then the Hardens cracked it, then the police sent their solution to the FBI (for verification, as you say). They never sent it to the FBI requesting them to crack it - or so it would seem. So, while there is no indication that the FBI solved it independently, it seems they weren't requested to do so either.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 7, 2014 11:44:44 GMT -8
Another piece of good fortune is that at the beginning of the code when you assign the letter "I" to the "open triangle," you may then say things like "I kill" or "I love to kill" or "I like to kill" or "I like killing." When you use that last phrase, you see that both "K"s are coded as the "slanted line." That helps you a lot because it is now "I like killing." And you're on your way.
Had Z used multiple characters to encode "K," that would not have happened. Once you got over the hump of solving the code by deciding to look for "I" and "Kill," the task was not insurmountable and required no magic or inside info from the killer, etc. and you certainly did not have to be Z to decode it.
Oh, and then after you have "I like killing..." the next logical word (or one of them) is "people." And as you can see, Z encoded both "P"s as that weird symbol. So really, after you determine that the code starts with "I" and you think the word "kill" will be in there, the next two key letters to solving it are the "K" and "P" and Z only used ONE symbol to encode each of them...so he wasted his time hiding the "E" and messing with the "M" because it was the "K" and "P" that, IMHO, gave the solution away. He also made a mistake (or not, depending on whether or not he wanted it solved quickly) by using such similar symbols for "L," so that you could see a pair of them together that looked the same.
Mike
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 7, 2014 19:57:36 GMT -8
That's what I've read too - yes. But the fact that they didn't solve it independently doesn't mean they never would have - which is my point. I'm no expert on ciphers but from what I can gather the 408 is very much solvable, so to speak. In other words, it's perhaps not unreasonable to surmise that the authorities would have cracked it sooner or later without the Hardens' help. That doesn't diminish the role they played, of course. It's a bit unclear, this thing - but it would appear that the police sent the cipher to the navy initially, then the Hardens cracked it, then the police sent their solution to the FBI (for verification, as you say). They never sent it to the FBI requesting them to crack it - or so it would seem. So, while there is no indication that the FBI solved it independently, it seems they weren't requested to do so either. Well I will join you N and freely admit that not only am I no expert in Cryptography, I know very little regarding it what-so-ever so maybe I shouldn't be so sure about the ability of The Hardens to do something when I really don't know much about that something at all. However, Deciphering the message aside, Betty Harden's claims in Graysmiths 'Zodiac' are strange at best, incriminating at worst. If I Norse, upon reading a post by yourself, replied with "The latter half of your post is speculation and incorrect. I started the Zodiac case, and ended it! When I write the true ending it will shake the Earth" what would you possibly think I could mean by such a statement? You'd assume, I would imagine, that either I have mental health issues (Don't you even think about it - Lol) or you'd wonder what information I was privy to that would allow me to make such a statement. The Harden's Daughter made the claim that her Mother had confided to her that she had solved a substantial part of the 340 and read what is concealed behind the symbols. Her then Ex-Husband, Don Harden, is not impressed with such a claim as he stated that it is simply not possible to solve part of the 340 saying that you either solve the entire code or nothing at all. You cannot solve a part or a few lines of a cipher in his opinion. But because I don't know if Don is correct and you cannot solve only part of a Homophonic Substitution Cipher or not, I'll assume for the moment (until someone confirms to the contrary) that you can, and that she had, in fact, achieved this very goal. If that is the case then the 340's message, once broken, must contain a message that reveals either who Zodiac is, or a conspiracy by several powerful people of that time that were behind this, or something like this that could justify Betty saying that the truth, when it is known about Zodiac, will shake the Earth. I used to ponder why, if she had broken part or all of the 340 and discovered the truth behind the Zodiac and 'His' crimes, why she wouldn't simply say what it was rather than cryptically hinting that she has knowledge of what the truth is regarding Zodiac. But maybe she won't say what it is she discovered in that Cipher because what is implicated within it's message is something that if it became known, would shake the foundations of the Earth. This can only mean that, if she did write the comment basing it on knowledge gained by deciphering part or all of the 340, then there is something written within the 340 itself that will possibly solve this case!
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 8, 2014 11:32:10 GMT -8
Well the FBI does have it's own Agents that specialise in Cryptography as far as I am aware but when it comes to Cryptograms, Cipher and/or coded messages etc, the elite of elite in cracking coded messages are found in the Navy. For these radiomen in service, coded & cryptic messaging is a compulsory & essential part of their job description. As such, the best cryptographers in the States, possibly even the World, will be found here & if these men, who communicate in coded messaging daily, can't break this Cipher & discover it's key to unlock the message I just have a hard time accepting that Harden succeeded where all the Naval Intelligence Community failed & succeed by guessing that this mans first word will be I.
Press report showing that the 408 was sent to the US Navy for them to try & decipher:
Article records that: "Police Chief Jack E Stiltz has done just that. He dispatched the Ciphers to the near-by Navy base for analysis."
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Post by Norse on Nov 9, 2014 10:33:53 GMT -8
I can see where you're coming from, W - but the problem is that we don't know the exact circumstances here: The cipher was published on Aug 1 - the Hardens solved it a week later. Precisely what happened between these dates - exactly what sort of bureaucracy was moving, and how fast/slowly it was moving - we do not know.
The question here must be whether the 408 is or is not - in a word - solvable. And from what I can gather it is. Meaning that the navy in all likelihood would have solved it too in good time. And, again, we don't know how much time and manpower they actually spent on it: For all we know a team of navy crypto experts would have cracked it in five minutes - but no such team was ever assembled, or they hadn't gotten around to it yet, etc. Impossible to say without more detailed information regarding what actually went down - and in what order it went down.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 9, 2014 13:38:33 GMT -8
I suppose we'll never know the answers to a lot of Zodiac case related questions. In this decoded message though there are words within it of 'ECONOMICS, HISTORY and SALINAS'using the rail fence cipher method.
I know what most will say in response to this, "So are the words 'CLOUD, MOANER and RECORD' along with a host of other rail fence or snake like patters of words." Yes, that would be true, but the relevance, if any, of these type words cannot be established where-as, relevance of HISTORY, ECONOMICS & SALINAS can be shown easily due to Zodiac saying "In this Cipher is my Identity' and the claimant claiming to have decoded it is a History & Economics teacher at a high school in Salinas.
Wouldn't be the first time a serial killer interjected himself into his own investigation and case by offering to be of assistance to the authorities. These people have ego's that need satisfying and satisfying it would be for someone like Zodiac to know that he is held in such high regard for his dedicated effort and skill in deciphering a Cipher that he had the Key for all along because he constructed the Cipher to begin with. "Mwa-ha-ha-ha. Me - Highly Amused, SFPD & Public - Idiots."
:-)
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