Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 19, 2014 18:11:48 GMT -8
I agree WC , also Kathleen Johns gave pretty much the same description. LE were looking for a over weight ,very tall people like Art Allen, when they should have been looking at people who were about the size of Woody Allen.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 21, 2014 8:06:26 GMT -8
I agree WC , also Kathleen Johns gave pretty much the same description. LE were looking for a over weight ,very tall people like Art Allen, when they should have been looking at people who were about the size of Woody Allen.
I agree Sandy. Having said that, in this case there is very little that we can say is consistent especially when it comes to the description of Zodiac himself. Not talking about Zodiac's clothing now, but his face and features etc. According to Megeau Z had curly Jet black hair but then Don Fouke's having none of that and says he had Light coloured hair in the style of a crew cut. That's just to point out one example. But if nothing else be consistent, there is one thing that is and that is: Size/Weight.
Everyone that encountered Zodiac described him with words such as "Stocky" "Medium to Heavy build" and "Overweight."
But in one interview Bryan Hartnell was asked about the size of the suspect and he said (I don't have the actual interview in front of me so i'll para-phrase what Hartnell said): "He was a big guy, looked real beefy. But, then again, he had on this big jacket which made him look that way. For all I know he could have been real skinny under it."
So even Zodiac's size/weight is open to speculation based on this claim by Hartnell.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 22, 2014 10:39:40 GMT -8
Where did you read or hear that Mike M said the shooter had jet black hair ? What I have read was curly brown hair. Bryan said dark brown greasy hair , would would be lighter if not greasy or wet. Mike M. changed some of his description of the shooter as well as the car over the yrs. ( I believe only what he described in July 69 )
Darlene's cousin Sue , went to visit Mike while he was in the hospital July 69. She claims Mike told her that Darlene got into an argument with a man at Terry's parking lot, the man followed them to Blue Rock and the argument continued there. That same man left for a few minutes, returned and shot them.
The caretaker's daughter said she heard arguing just before the shots were fired, which backs Sue's account of what Mike told her.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 22, 2014 14:24:13 GMT -8
Where did you read or hear that Mike M said the shooter had jet black hair ? What I have read was curly brown hair. Bryan said dark brown greasy hair , would would be lighter if not greasy or wet. Mike M. changed some of his description of the shooter as well as the car over the yrs. ( I believe only what he described in July 69 ) Darlene's cousin Sue , went to visit Mike while he was in the hospital July 69. She claims Mike told her that Darlene got into an argument with a man at Terry's parking lot, the man followed them to Blue Rock and the argument continued there. That same man left for a few minutes, returned and shot them. The caretaker's daughter said she heard arguing just before the shots were fired, which backs Sue's account of what Mike told her. Mike said, and I'll quote him word for word, that:
"When He (Zodiac) came up and shot me I did have some idea of what he looked like. He looked like a tall white guy, about 6 feet tall. Jet black hair, curly and, uhh, he looked like an average kind of person. He wasn't ugly, he wasn't handsome, just your average non descript guy." End Quote.
That's what Mike said in 2007. Then again he also said in the same interview: "He was tall, Dark, and....He may have been wearing glasses like mine also. He may have even had reading glasses on. I recall he did have glasses on, as I recall. He definitely had glasses on." Then he also said "Darlene didn't mention any name....She may have said something about Richard. She may have mentioned his name was Richard."
I can't and won't be critical of Mike because the guy had been shot in the face among other places when he's trying to recall what actually happened. I think Mike just tries to please people and whatever the flavour of the month is so to speak, he picks that. Like when Art Allen was 'No.1 Suspect and almost certainly Z" Mageau picked Allen out of a line up even though he had seen Allen's face and knew he was suspected for the crimes prior to looking at the line up. Then when Tommy Boy get's his blinkers on and charges head first into a publicity campaign to promote Richard Gaikowski as Zodiac (ignoring hard evidence that clearly clears Richard of even the possibility of being Zodiac preferring to point at a 4 word sequence in one of the ciphers that spelled 'GYKE' and shot "Proof, proof, proof" while ignoring a little fact like 'Gaikowski never shortened it to GYKE, but always and without exception, GAIK.') then Mike confirms that his shooters name may have been 'Richard.'
Again, I don't think Mike has any ill or deceptive intent when he does this, I just think he see's it as helping and if someone tells him that, or the media promote the idea for, Art Allen as Z then Mike will gladly oblige them with confirmation. He just probably wants this to go away and as he says in the interview "I would like it if this case was solved, put that man on death row or something." He's lived with this for years and it's clear that he has what's medically recognised as 'Survivors Guilt' over Dee's death.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 22, 2014 14:30:48 GMT -8
One thing Mageau did recollect in his statement to police in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is that, according to him, the man who shot him emptied his gun, and as he walked back to his car to reload his gun Mike said he noticed that he walked kinda odd, slowly and not in any hurry, head down and slightly leaning forward.
This leapt off the page at me and instantly reminded me of Don Fouke's comment of "He sort of looked down, perhaps this lumbering gait. Stumbling along with a semi kind of limp, might have come up in my mind because he was putting his head down when he spotted the police car."
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 23, 2014 15:37:26 GMT -8
WC you are a lot nicer than I am about all the changes Mike M has made over the yrs.
Knowing he enjoyed pretending to be different people back in 1968-69, telling Darlene all those made up names and story's. I feel that when he was asked questions right after the shooting about the shooter, he was more likly to tell the truth then than now.
I have noticed that people want to tell Tom V what they think he wants to hear, so when Art Allen was Tom's fave., Mike and others said: oh yes that was the killer.
There are far better witnesses who saw Zodiac's hair and said it was brown, I believe them over Mike M. who had a bright light in his face the whole time he was being shot.
He barely could see Zodiac as he walked away towards his brown car, unless Zodiac was walking backwards, how did he see his face ?
If he got a good look at him when Zodiac was parked before he drove off and came back, then I have to say he did get a look at him. Or it was Zodiac who was arguing with Darlene at Terry's and Mike got a good look at him then.
Bottom line , I do not trust what Mike M has to say now, or the name Richard. That name would have been mentioned back in 1969 not 2014 if Darlene told him that name. The number one question VPD would have asked Mike July 69 ,is did Darlene mention the name of the man she feared ?
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 23, 2014 17:39:17 GMT -8
I agree as to Mike's reliability as a witness. I do think though that there is a distinction to be made between Mageau lying or holding something back, with the likes of someone like Armond Pelissetti lying and withholding information or details about the possible offender because the two are so different. Armond is a Cop with a gun and an army of other armed men behind him called the SFPD to back him up should the offender threaten or make an attempt on his life. Mageau is a teenage kid who has no gun nor back-up to defend himself with. If Mike's keeping quiet about something, it'll be out of sheer fear having been shot full of led once by him, so there is no doubt he will come back and finish the job if he hears Mike has named him and is 'Witness #2' on the Prosecution's witness list. Armond Pelissetti on the other hand isn't likely to be keeping details quiet through fear of, or intimidation from, the Zodiac. Assuming Zodiac isn't Lyndon B. Johnson, SFPD Chief Martin Lee or any other socially superior and officially higher ranked individual then we can assume that Armond isn't likely to be intimidated and threatened into silence by fear.
I suppose what I am tying to say, in a nut shell, is I too do not trust the word of Mageau or Pelissetti, but their reasons/motives for lying/holding back something are distinctly different and as such, I can't say i blame Mike Mageau if his reasons for not being honest are fear of a second attempt on his life whereas Armond's reasons for withholding something about something, or someone, in Pacific Heights can only be sinister and unethical.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 23, 2014 20:15:25 GMT -8
I just re-read Oct 2 1969 VTH article written by Dave Peterson. He said Mike M said light brown hair,Light brown car like Darlene's car. " Hartnell said brown wavey or curly hair.Glasses under sun glasses, "large" holes for eyes ( That was how he was able to see the hair).
Zodiac almost always walks slowly, head down. I will bet Zodiac walked slowly back to Knoxville rd at Lake Berryessa , thank goodness he had
left by the time Bryan made it to the jeep trail,or he would have finished the job.
Zodiac knows that by not running, he would not look suspious. He mentioned not speeding away at Blue Rock.
Knowing that the suspect seen walking on Jackson st walked slowly, makes me believe that was Zodiac.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jul 23, 2014 22:04:04 GMT -8
I just re-read Oct 2 1969 VTH article written by Dave Peterson. He said Mike M said light brown hair,Light brown car like Darlene's car. " Hartnell said brown wavey or curly hair.Glasses under sun glasses, "large" holes for eyes ( That was how he was able to see the hair). Zodiac almost always walks slowly, head down. I will bet Zodiac walked slowly back to Knoxville rd at Lake Berryessa , thank goodness he had left by the time Bryan made it to the jeep trail,or he would have finished the job. Zodiac knows that by not running, he would not look suspious. He mentioned not speeding away at Blue Rock. Knowing that the suspect seen walking on Jackson st walked slowly, makes me believe that was Zodiac. It was him, of that I am quite sure in my own mind. Why? His clothing. What Fouke described the man wearing is identical (all bar a few minor details) to the description given by Hartnell of what Zodiac was wearing two weeks before at Lake B. Both said he wore a navy blue windbreaker type jacket with a flap down collar. Both stated that he wore 'pleated trousers' and both Bryan and Don said this struck them as odd with Don commenting "He was wearing Rust Coloured Pleated Trousers, which were unusual for the time" meaning they were not in fashion and not worn by many people at that time in the late 60's and Bryan said "He had on these pleated Pants, the old suit style of pants, you know?" And finally, Wingwalker Boot impressions were found at Berryessa crime scene leading to and from the scene itself, almost certainly made by the attacker and Fouke recalls that in Presidio Heights the guy wore "Engineering type boot, low cut shoe and tan in colour."
They are describing the same man, or at very least, two men who wore the same clothing to commit the crimes. Zodiac did blab that he looks like the description passed out only when he did his thing, the rest of the time he said he looks completely different and said "I shall not tell you what my disguise consists of when I kill." In the next paragraph of the same letter he makes reference to his 'Killing tools' and how they have been purchased through the mail order. He could mean Gun's, he could mean clothing, or both. One thing is certain, he wore the same clothes to attack in Sept. as he did to attack and kill Paul two weeks later in October. I'd say this outfit is part of his aforementioned 'disguise' that he only wears when he's out to do his thing.
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Post by MikeR on Jul 24, 2014 15:27:48 GMT -8
Hi-
I think the reddish-brown hair behind the stamp must be included in any discussion of Z's hair color. How did that get there other than when the stamp was applied to the letter? Maybe the luckiest break Z caught was the fact that there was no root bulb on that hair and that it is so small that it is unlikely that you could get mt-DNA from it even today.
Mike
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 24, 2014 22:51:16 GMT -8
Thanks Mike,that hair is important, it gives us the true color of Zodiac's hair.(reddish brown)
WC, Zelms wife has said that he told her, they did speak to the person they believe was Zodiac. He was very upset by that.
She had nothing to gain by making that claim, I do believe she told the truth. His partner must then be lying or forgot ?
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Aug 7, 2014 22:22:00 GMT -8
Welch Chappie, Mike M. probably thought 160 was heavy, because he was so thin. But then that isn't far off of what Kathleen Johns said her abductor was either.
I had one suspect I was looking at that couldn't run , he had a wooden leg. Another suspect who shakes badly when ever he is next to me, but not when he is by himself.
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