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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 5, 2015 21:23:43 GMT -8
With thoughts on Paul Stine's perpetrator in mind : The ability of the executioner to ''disappear into thin air'',given that he was likely to have been very bloodied,and possibly hard of hearing,will always raise questions that will remain unanswered,until the case is solved. Did ''Zodiac'' make for the Presidio ? Was he booked in at a nearby hotel ? I have even read about a suggestion that Zodiac may have had a relationship with Donna Lass,and held keys to a flat that she owned,nearby. The confidence shown by the man who dispatched of Mr.Stine,suggests that he was equally confident of ''step 2'' - getting away.Like a well seasoned bank robber,it seems that he had a head for time allocation [?].Personally,I believe that it was,with a vehicle in mind,that would spirit him away.But was the getaway vehicle his,or that of an accomplice ? Clearly,the police felt disappointment and failure,in their inability to apprehend the perpetrator.Given that it soon became apparent that this man may well have been Zodiac,must have made the pill that much harder to swallow. The horse ''bolted'',and whatever transpired in the minutes that proceeded,can't be taken back,and changed. It is never presumed that Officer Fouke actually failed in his duty.But I suspect that he rues that he was unable to emerge as a hero [?]. Well I was saying only yesterday on Richard's site: "You know, I've been trying to think of, given the many differing accounts by Armond & Don, which is most likely to be true in regards specifically to what Z said to Don. If you take the many different accounts of what Zodiac said to Fouke and use logic, the evidence and on scene response, and Z's own words I think the answer is clear. The most likely and accurate sequence of events is the one in which Pelissetti said in one account: "The other unit stopped someone and asked that person had He seen anyone and the person said 'Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio.' Why do I say this? Well, This is what Armond claimed Don had told him about what He had said and reply given in his encountering a White Male near Maple and Jackson intersection. Now in Z's letter He says "This cop car pulled up and one of them called me over and asked had I seen anyone acting strange and I said that I had and there was this man who went running by waving a gun and they peeled rubber and went around the corner as I had directed them." Now the temptation here is to read Z as literal again in that He directed them to the area up street where He saw this supposed armed man but I don't think He means this at all. I think Zodiac said exactly what Armond Pelissetti stated He tells Don and tells Don "Yes, I just saw a man with a gun run into the Presidio" and then offers the extra help of pointing uphill and telling Don that three blocks uphill at Arguello a right turn will lead directly onto west pacific itself. Again, I know I keep saying this but I can't get away from it, if Fouke is told this by man who is a nobody then I think He would not have second guessed himself as He admitted to doing so. I believe that it was none other than Mr Qvale who directs Fouke to the Presidio and if this is correct then Fouke has my sympathy because at this moment He and the guy are engaging, Fouke is under the assumption that this is a robbery gone bad where the person responsible is desperate enough to kill for a few dollars and so to suspect this man of the crime, the multi millionaire Kjell Qvale, is simply lunacy! Kjell is, in fact, making his way home to His multi million dollar mansion just the other side of Maple Intersect. Don said when asked why He never gave this white guy a second thought "I didn't think of it in my report because I assumed that He (the actual killer) did not live in the area (and He knew Mr Qvale did live in that area)" So what Don is saying is He didn't think of reporting his encountering this person because He knew it was Qvale and Qvale is not someone that anyone would think to report seeing when you are seeking a robbery suspect where 6 or 7 dollars are the target. "I didn't think about it in my report...." He said, which is exactly what I would say if someone asked me why I didn't report seeing a person that I knew to be such a rich and influential man as that of a petty thief and murder suspect
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 5, 2015 21:24:33 GMT -8
And again see if this man is the Zodiac, then now we need to answer several important questions....
1) Zodiac watches Fouke go upjhill and around onto West Pacific as He had directed them and so, how in the World is He now going to duck through the Wall of Maple and into the Presidio and then make His way along the road to Julius Kahn Park and do so without being spotted??
2) Before answering question one maybe we need to ask first, why in the hell would anyone direct a swarm of cops to the exact place you plan on using yourself as a means of escape? You simply wouldn't do this!
3) If Zodiac is being honest when He brags "Hey Blue Pig, I was in the Park....." then this now becomes even more stupendously stupid as now we must believe that He himself directs the police to go dashing to the grounds of the Presidio before He himself rushes onto this very same stage and ends up surrounded by the very responding police He minutes ago directed to this area. Anyone who believes this is plausible or likely to have happened may as well say that Zodiac shoots Paul and then hears a siren in the distance and leaps under the yellow cab hiding where He believes He will never be discovered!
See for me it is just so obvious as of late, if the question is 'Who may have a motive to point the responding police into the presidio?' then I am answering every day with the same answer of: "Someone who knows very well they won't be going anywhere near that place." Someone who also is still able to watch the unfolding search happen. Who would all these circumstantial tid-bits fit nicely? Suspect X! Mr Q!
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 5, 2015 21:47:24 GMT -8
But we are told time and time again by One Armond Fell-off-A-Sette that the suspect, whoever He may have been, would be so simple to spot what with all the blood soaked staining upon his foul person.
Well, maybe, but if suspect shot Paul from a position seated behind him on left rear side then spatter will be ejected to the right and any that would be heading for a rear seated passenger is stopped and absorbed by the driver seat head rest. This point of debate is pointless if Zodiac enters cab not wearing His Navy Parka Jacket but shoots Paul, exits, put's on His jacket to cover any blood spatter staining. What if He simplified the potential forsen problem and got in the cab wearing the parka, but doing so inside out? It's night time, dark out, who's going to notice unless up close?
"Paul's bleeding head rested in the crotch" they say? Easy to don 2 or three pairs of trousers over the other. Now this is just stretching it surely, I hear the groans. This is a man who laims to coat his finger tips with Airplane Cement, and so to say He would go to the extreme isn't that unrealistic at all! He that is horn rimmed spec'ed up in A Clark Kent like disguise reasoning: "In the cab everyone would recognize me, but I shall bring out the game changer in the form of horn rimed glasses and put them on my face, step out of the Cab and even people I have known for 30 years will fail to recognize me!
My point is, people make many assumptions and do so on the most unsafe grounds because to suggest it is not possible for any cop to fail to spot the blood soaked cloths of the person had He been the man responsible is ignoring the fact that actually, there are numerous ways to debunk this very idea and show it is actually more likely He didn't have much, maybe a few spots if any of Paul's blood, on him at all
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 5, 2015 22:14:11 GMT -8
I am going to design and run an advert for my Job as managing director of a driving school:
"Are you paying to much for your cab bill? No longer willing to take the 'Accidental' long route to get to your destination? Feel like blowing the driver head off as you arrive at your requested destination? If you answered Yes then we are the change you need!
Call us for a free quote with no obligation to purchase for just £300 and we'll teach you how to be self reliable and learn to drive your own self with the Zodiac school of motoring. Advanced learning offered on how to off someone for expecting you to pay them for a service! £250 inc. VAT.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Oct 6, 2015 4:35:06 GMT -8
It sounds like an industrious business venture,WelshChappie......I suspect that a Scotsman might still be running the figures through his head,wondering what possible extra charges,might be hidden in the paperwork.
Yes,very eloquently put,regarding a possible/probable scenario in the minutes following Mr.Stine's murder.Your detailed analysis and ruminations outweigh anything that I have previously read.
One thing extra....only recently have I become aware of the extent that the police went to,in order ascertain the physical movements of the perpetrator,in those minutes following the murder.More specifically,the employment of teams of Bloodhounds that they brought in,for a number of hours,following the incident.
The dogs turned up nothing.
Has anyone got any suggestions,why this might be ?
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 6, 2015 7:07:22 GMT -8
It sounds like an industrious business venture,WelshChappie......I suspect that a Scotsman might still be running the figures through his head,wondering what possible extra charges,might be hidden in the paperwork. Yes,very eloquently put,regarding a possible/probable scenario in the minutes following Mr.Stine's murder.Your detailed analysis and ruminations outweigh anything that I have previously read. One thing extra....only recently have I become aware of the extent that the police went to,in order ascertain the physical movements of the perpetrator,in those minutes following the murder.More specifically,the employment of teams of Bloodhounds that they brought in,for a number of hours,following the incident. The dogs turned up nothing. Has anyone got any suggestions,why this might be ? The Response by Inspectors was to request the use of dogs trained to track the scent left by a potential suspect. I asked in regard to these Dog Units and I simply assumed that one of all of the K9'would have been taken straight to the Cab as this is a known and unquestionable location the suspect recently departed and I was told "No, this is not what happened. The dogs were taken straight to the Presidio Grounds to search for the suspect." I asked "What? But surely they have to be shown a scent in order to know which scent they are to follow? You can't just have a cop burst into the Presidio screaming "ATTENTION ALL POLICE OFFICERS! DO NOT MOVEM STAND FROZEN STILL. THE SNIFFING MACHINE IS NOW BEING RELEASED AMONG YOU AND IF YOU RUN WILL MISTAKE YOU FOR THE NAUGHTY MAN AND RESPOND BY ATTACHING ITSELF TO YOUR CALF. . . . . SICK EM BOY!!! Dog then runs around confused as fk wondering "Sick what? what am I looking for, who's scent am I to track as there appears to be 35 people all around the area?" But on a serious note I was told no dogs were offered a suspect scent and went straight to the Presidio. This must be why Zodiac referred to the dogs never coming within 300 miles of him (Ok, slight exaggeration) as these 4 legged police officers were too busy chomping the legs of the 'suspect in SFPD Uniform'
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Post by WelshChappie on Oct 6, 2015 7:25:13 GMT -8
Dave Toschi was observing the terrain when.....and this info is highly sensitive and non publicised intelligence you understand, but Toschi stood just 15, 20 yards away from Julius Kahn when a voice came...."Hello Pig Cop Dave, for this is the Zodiac Speaking! I have grown rather impatient waiting for you to come and play with me on the sea-saw. I shall no longer wait and I shall make my falling off look like a routine accident. I am the same man that has hid in the bush in a foliage clad area. Your pig prowls will never catch me as the bush will move slowly away down field.
I shall not tell you what my disguise consists of other than it is a 8 ft high 4 ft wide bush that has been hollowed out in center allowing a driver to conceal himself within and drive around the ground undetected! I don't think you have the firepower Davey Boy to continually shoot every single bush in this Presidio Grounds hoping I'll come bouncing out Dave. Happy Prowling Pig, From The Secret pal.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Oct 6, 2015 10:44:21 GMT -8
Priceless imagery,WelshChappie - resonating an incompetence of purpose by the cops in charge,that is difficult to comprehend [?].
Perhaps some of those shirt samples taken from the victim,were used to create a ''paper chase'' for the dogs[?].After many trials,the police realized that the perpetrator's geographical movements ''configurated'' a giant ''cross hair'' symbol [?].
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Apr 10, 2016 3:21:09 GMT -8
In the wake of true ''Zodiac'' legend,Lyndon Lafferty's passing,there has undoubtedly been a time for reflection,among those that knew him and associated with him.
Though a general observer of the Zodiac phenomenon,who writes mostly ''broadstroke'' articles,Kevin Fagan,crime writer for the SF Chronicle,positively ''glows'' at the very mention of Mr.Lafferty.It is rare to find an individual,who conducted himself with such dignity and humility,as Lyndon.A ''role model'' for good behaviour,in the often heated debates over Zodiac's identity and extent of carnage.
But what of Lafferty's defined legacy - his literary work, ''The Zodiac Killer Cover-Up''.Published to,at best,''mixed'' reaction,its main ''problem'' was that many were not convinced of suspect William Joseph Grant's culpability of the crimes attributed to Zodiac,anyway.
I would suggest that,on that basis,those that held a firm negative opinion,never bothered to read the book,believing that it could hold no merit in ''their'' Zodiac world.And yet it never stopped them from deriding Lafferty,at the very mention of Grant.
I note that these individuals tend to have two things in common.Firstly,that they are San Francisco -''centric'',in their views on the Zodiac case,and secondly,that they concern themselves almost wholly with the murder of Paul Stine.That somehow,this isolated execution will unlock the mystery of Zodiac.
Lyndon Lafferty gave a perspective from the ''provinces'' of San Francisco - and that in itself,placed him disadvantaged,from the ''off''.If we really examine the case as a whole entity,and from what Law Enforcement is willing to admit,the Paul Stine murder represents a ''departure'' from Zodiac's hunting ground.More than likely,a declaration and boast from Zodiac,that he could kill anywhere - even in the middle of a built up conurbation.But for the most part,it is apparent that he sneaked around the ''quieter''rural areas,in the outer reaches of a big city.
Personally,I believe that Lafferty re-focused the case in the correct ''ball park''.He has lead us to the right ''watering hole'',though unable to convince us that the water will quench our thirst.
My advice would be for those critics,is to just read his book,regardless of their opinions and preconceived notions.His contributions as an investigator have real worth.
William Joseph Grant took secrets to his grave.Secrets that Lyndon Lafferty never fully got to grips with - but ''time'' will serve Lafferty's contribution well.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on May 6, 2016 13:39:13 GMT -8
Having experienced,what is often referred to as ''The website community'' for about a year,''it'' as a phenomenon of intrigue,in itself.
In attempting to expose the serial killer and extortionist,''The Zodiac Killer'',those that engage in this goal,from behind a laptop,certainly emerge from a diversity of backgrounds,and even,true reasons for their involvement.
Academics,sometime journalists,amateur investigators,True crime enthusiasts....these could all be ''expected'' participants [?].But I have also come across lonely people,thieves,nihilists,subversives....and even,Born Again Christians [!].
Sometimes one wonders the true nature of community members' attraction to this ''man'' that created turmoil and mayhem to Northern California,almost 50 years ago [?].
Just as a visit to watch racehorses compete,individuals put forward their favored ''runners and riders'',in the form of a ''suspect'' that they ''adopt'',in the hope that one day,the identity of Zodiac will be revealed,and their suspicions will be vindicated,for all to see.
Who is really more clever and ''knowing'',than anyone else ?
The one reality check,I might humbly suggest [?].None of the ''high profile'' suspects,generally listed,are likely to be ''Zodiac''.Law enforcement has already ''been and done'' them.Unless,of course,''Zodiac'' was some secret society involving most of them together,led by someone else,yet unknown [!].
The attraction endures,though,and that in itself deserves recognition,and to an extent,celebration.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on May 7, 2016 9:34:35 GMT -8
For all those that might see themselves as ''The Lonely People'' :
I am sure that there will always be a warm welcome for you at ''ZKM''.You are the special ones,and ''Eleanor Rigby'' will live for a thousand years,to remind us of this.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on May 19, 2016 9:29:13 GMT -8
In the early days of Law Enforcement realizing that Zodiac represented a ''very particular'' type of serial killer,Special Agents from the FBI and California Department of Justice,were assigned specific tasks,of perhaps three months duration,to examine perceived aspects of habits and modus operandi.
These assignments would culminate in a report,submitted to a superior tier in the hierarchical structure,which might include Edward J Hoover,himself.Indeed,FBI Files released in recent years,reveal that Mr.Hoover took quite an interest in this ''Killer on the loose'' in California,and was known to offer his autograph to any member of the public that could come up with interesting suggestions or information.
It is apparent that there was certainly a ''leaning'' on the Pagan perception of Zodiac's practices - that his interests might include doctrines such as Astrology,Numerology,and various occult related interests.
There are indications that Zodiac did pay attention to anniversaries,with a host of date ''coincidences'' emerging over the years.In addition,his apparent fascination to Christmas - the most recognized anniversary of all [!].Further to this,the choice of greetings cards,often associated with marked occasions.
As the years go by,these perceptions of Zodiac,take on less importance,and the realities of a ''real person'',not yet brought to justice,override the ''fantasy'' for which we were once inclined,to be hypnotized.
Zodiac may have taken an interest in the Moon,but from an Astronomer's perspective,rather than an Astrologer's [?].After all,it was the time of ''The Space Race''.
Zodiac may have taken an interest in the ''quirkiness'' of numbers,since he probably came across them all the time,in his work - more than probably related to Mechanical engineering [?].But numbers were ''gifted'' to him,for he was certainly no mathematical theorist,and did not read in to them,more than novelty value.''Numbers'' to Zodiac,were a ''tool''.
Zodiac as a real and flawed person.That,is how we should look for him.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on May 23, 2016 1:14:56 GMT -8
My apologies for naming the famous and ''eccentric'' Director of the FBI,as ''Edward J Hoover''.He was,of course,J Edgar Hoover.Perhaps I was confusing his name with that well known actor,renowned for his gangster roles,Edward G Robinson.
One can just see Mr.Robinson referring to Zodiac as ''You dirty rat !'' [?].
Mr.Hoover was well known for his predilection for ''hedging his bets'' on horse racing,and,at a time that he oversaw the outlawing of ''off track'' gambling.It is common knowledge that Hoover's private bookmaker was expected to pay Hoover his winnings in full - and,ignore Hoover's accumulated debts.
One wonders on which Zodiac suspect,Hoover's bet was placed [?].
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Law Enforcement are all too aware of certain legal rights that citizens have,to police their own society.As appointed officers of the law,their policing rights are greater.
So if anyone finds frustration in not receiving information,for which they have applied,and for which they believe that they are entitled,often is the case that ''legal small print'' actually entitles ''the Law'' to deny citizens certain information.
I have found that the predominant reason,with regard to serious crime,is to protect the identities of witnesses,victim's bereaved,and potential suspects.
In one particular murder case that I was ''researching'',a report that I submitted to a LE agency,suggested that I may have made attempts to contact a victim's bereaved.As it happens,this was not the case - but the perceived inference caused immediate ''consternation'',and as a consequence,a junior detective was assigned desk duties,for having mislead me previously.
As an amateur investigator,it's a delicate road one must tread.Though one seeks to assist those with the real arresting powers,one should be careful not to tread on their toes.
And to be mindful,and accepting,of areas of investigation,for which one will never be a part.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jun 3, 2016 8:44:13 GMT -8
To the gentleman that has posted in the shoutbox,as ''zodiac'' :
You have made reasonable points,but not really qualified these points.
Come in from the cold,and explain yourself,further [?].
Don't be concerned about your imperfect English.We can all get by,and you can even use your mother tongue,if you wish [?].
Add to the debate - you will be most welcome.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jun 13, 2016 11:19:24 GMT -8
If there are two pastimes that Zodiac enjoyed the most,they are his Library habituation and his passion for Motorcars and motoring.
In his letters,Zodiac alludes to his automobile predilection,almost constantly - as both a ''petrolhead''[...one who likes to use a car,at the exclusion of any other means of transport..],and as a ''motorhead''[...one who likes to tinker with engines in a garage or makeshift workshop...].
Expressions employed,such as ''peeled rubber'',which originates from the sport of Drag Racing,and ''cruzeing [sic] prowl cars'',in reference to traffic cops,indicate that Zodiac held no secret of his ''car mania''.
Zodiac may also have been influenced in his puzzles.In his Halloween card to Paul Avery,a symbol,believed to have been a personal interpretation of a Fred Harmon Cattle brand,appears to contain headlights.And the presumed cryptogram ''4-TEEN'' translates,by the Bell conversion table [..found on all land line phones..],to 48336 - which is the Zip code for Oakland County,Michigan,where all the wealthy car executives and designers reside.In addition,the ''By Fire'' expression,may well refer to his ''Chariot of Fire'' and motor car - a ''nod'' to the Hymn and poem,Jerusalem,by William Blake.
All the serious crimes,for which Zodiac is ''wanted'' involve motorcars at the forefront of ''proceedings''.Even with the Paul Stine murder,there is a suspicion that police are not convinced of Zodiac's claim to have remained in the vicinity,and therefore had made a ''swifty'' getaway.
''Library habituator'' and motorway ''Speed freak'' - not the sort of combination,that most people would find sitting ''side by side'',readily [?].
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