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Post by WelshChappie on Jun 28, 2014 14:27:45 GMT -8
I mean why isn't there any follow up details on this witnesses and suspect? I mean let's remember, Arthur Allen had a watch with a cross-hairs on it and some minor organised crime figure facing 30 years for armed robbery told police also that Art Allen was Zodiac and we have reports of raids being carried out at Arthur's trailer home, reports of him being questioned by police, cops conducting surveillance, and many other actions taken by the LE community. So we may expect that if an actual on scene witness see's the crime happen and then points out 'Man A' as the guy that did it, we'd have raid's carried out on Man A's home and many other such things. Why not for this mysterious suspect?
And Mike, I will respond to you PM's, just been a bit busy as of late :-)
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Post by MikeR on Jun 28, 2014 16:21:34 GMT -8
Hi WC,
Well, I agree that what the 8 year-old said needs to be uncovered and followed up on. In the interest of being more conservative in my view, I am not going to assert that he definitely said he saw KQ. The name was short but may have been as long as like seven letters, as far as I can tell. However, what probably happened given that this kid most likely lived in PH is that he said the name of a local resident, who lived in the neighborhood and who was, by implication, "above suspicion." Why SFPD would then pass along the name to the FBI is a bit of a mystery but...still an intriguing piece of the puzzle.
I will be pretty pissed off, to be frank, if he did mention KQ and SFPD didn't act more decisively when I came along fifteen years ago this week mentioning the same name for different reasons.
Reply to the PM's when you have an opportunity. no rush.
Mike
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Post by WelshChappie on Jun 29, 2014 10:31:56 GMT -8
"Hi WC,
Well, I agree that what the 8 year-old said needs to be uncovered and followed up on. In the interest of being more conservative in my view, I am not going to assert that he definitely said he saw KQ."
Mike in the interest of being accurate, not conservative, I think that's a slightly misleading comment because lets say that the readers do not have access to my original comment, your response clearly implies, or would lead people to assume, that I had said "It's not up for debate, the redacted name is QVALE and that's just that." I hope nobody does read my comment and take it to be a declaration fact that QVALE is the name redacted, I assumed that it wouldn't be taken as such because I clearly stated when starting the sentence that:
"Well, in my personal opinion, the reason why they didn't follow up or make reports of a follow up investigation was because the eight year old witness had identified Kjell Qvale as the cab drivers killer."
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Post by MikeR on Jun 29, 2014 12:30:30 GMT -8
Hi-
I stand corrected! I certainly was not trying to put words in your mouth and apologize if I misstated your position.
Mike
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jun 29, 2014 13:37:46 GMT -8
The eight year old witness I am pretty sure was a female. The people who lived at the house where the shooting took place were the Shanterilli’s (Sorry wrong spelling) They had young children , my feeling is that is where the witness could have lived ? I need to look further into where she maybe now ? What I read ,was that the man looked like Mr.--------- , not that it was for sure Mr.----------. Still SFPD should have taken a good look at whomever he was. Vallejo PD seemed to be more vigilant than SFPD, perhaps it is because there were more Zodiac crimes in the Vallejo area ?
Or they did check out the person that the witness said looked like Mr ------and he was someone who was so well off, that it just didn’t fit what they perceived Zodiac would be like ? Did they show the other cab drivers the composite, to see if he looked like the one who had robbed them in that same area ? There is a chance that Zodiac did at least one trial run first , to see just how much time he would have to get away ?
That fender bender that Stine had ,do either of you know who he hit ? I have always wondered if it was the Zodiac who he was in the accident with? How badly was the other car damaged ? I think Zodiac has a short fuse and it wouldn’t take much for him to want to kill.
I was just thinking about how nice it is that we can have a productive civilized conversation, without all of the negativity that goes on at the other boards. We can have healthy debates without the ridicules arguing back and forth. If we disagree with something we can explain why we don’t agree with this or that.
None of this : Oh I just don’t believe that could have happened ! Or I don’t believe Zodiac wrote that letter.
I want to know the” reason” , maybe that will cause me to look at it differently and then I might change my mind about it.
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Post by MikeR on Jun 30, 2014 15:52:28 GMT -8
Hi-
The Sciantarelli's have always interested me. They worked for Mignon Augsbury, who owned the house until she died in June 1968. Then in her will she left them an expensive car. That $30K car was a JAGUAR. Who was the biggest Jag dealer in SF at the time? Qvale. So I believe that he may have known Mrs. Augsbury and that she had died in 1968. I know the Schiantarelli's apparently moved in on the main house after that but I wonder if they mostly lived in the servant's quarters on Maple. It is possible that if that home was mostly dark at night at the time of the Stine murder, this may have played into Z's decision to have Stine stop opposite that house. He may have known the neighborhood well...
Z clearly did not kill in front of the Schiantarelli home. But he clearly seemd to have PLANNED to kill in front of the former Augsbury home until sh*t probably happened that night and he had to move one block west. He obviously killed in front of the Robbins house.
I've often wondered if the Schiantarelli's were gypsy-like in their activities--moving in on Mignon Augsbury and getting her to will them expensive stuff. I tried writing to one of them a few years ago but with no reply.
And IF KQ normally walked his dog up Maple Street to Washington every night, he had every opportunity to be very familiar with the intersection of Washington and Maple. Did Earl van Best or Art Allen stroll around this neighborhood every night and become comfortable enough to kill there? According to an SFPD source, 90% of people in SF don't know where Wash/Maple is. It is far from the beaten path and in a wealthy neighborhood that few people ever have a reason to visit. KQ not only knew where it was but had every opportunity to be familiar with it. That is part of the reason he belongs at or near the top of the list, IMO.
Mike
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Post by MikeR on Jun 30, 2014 15:56:13 GMT -8
Hi-
I wonder if Z may have approached Stine by saying that he was a wealthy car dealer from Van Ness and that he can see Stine had a little accident and his car was in need of some body work, etc. Chuckle-chuckle. Then he says he is headed home to his mansion in PH. Stine lets his guard down figuring (correctly) that the guy is made of money and (incorrectly) that he represents no threat and lets him ride up front, so they can chat.
Stine didn't have to know Z. He just had to feel comfortable with him.
Mike
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 1, 2014 14:36:05 GMT -8
Hi- The Sciantarelli's have always interested me. They worked for Mignon Augsbury, who owned the house until she died in June 1968. Then in her will she left them an expensive car. That $30K car was a JAGUAR. Who was the biggest Jag dealer in SF at the time? Qvale. So I believe that he may have known Mrs. Augsbury and that she had died in 1968. I know the Schiantarelli's apparently moved in on the main house after that but I wonder if they mostly lived in the servant's quarters on Maple. It is possible that if that home was mostly dark at night at the time of the Stine murder, this may have played into Z's decision to have Stine stop opposite that house. He may have known the neighborhood well... Z clearly did not kill in front of the Schiantarelli home. But he clearly seemd to have PLANNED to kill in front of the former Augsbury home until sh*t probably happened that night and he had to move one block west. He obviously killed in front of the Robbins house. I've often wondered if the Schiantarelli's were gypsy-like in their activities--moving in on Mignon Augsbury and getting her to will them expensive stuff. I tried writing to one of them a few years ago but with no reply. And IF KQ normally walked his dog up Maple Street to Washington every night, he had every opportunity to be very familiar with the intersection of Washington and Maple. Did Earl van Best or Art Allen stroll around this neighborhood every night and become comfortable enough to kill there? According to an SFPD source, 90% of people in SF don't know where Wash/Maple is. It is far from the beaten path and in a wealthy neighborhood that few people ever have a reason to visit. KQ not only knew where it was but had every opportunity to be familiar with it. That is part of the reason he belongs at or near the top of the list, IMO. Mike I didn't know that the servants quarters were on Maple ! That explains why the brother to the one living in the main house at 3799 Washington was living back at the apt on Maple. I forget if it was Victor at the main house or William ? But the one at the main house had a wife a chidren there. Mignon's husband John C Augsbury was born in NY. , Mignon was born in Missouri July 24th 1886. Here is a list of the servants they had in 1940.Tin Chung was a butler who was there with his wife, Sanni Kulmale was a servant, Helen Gilman was" Governess", David Patterson another butler,Kotsuichi Hirota servant. Barry G. Wagner was listed as "Son" age 21. Ruby Johnson servant,Elsa Dahl servant. A Governess is someone who takes care of a child and may have home schooled Barry, because he didn't go to school. I found his birth mother Kathryn Wagner , she died 6-17-69 she lived at 2340 Pacific Ave apt 106 and had lived 3701 Washington st and 2505 Broadway.( She was very well off herself, with a servant) Mignon and John Augsbury had lived at 300 Balboa in 1929. (Same street Donna Lass had lived 39-40 yrs later) I could not get any information on Sciantarelli's today.
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Post by MikeR on Jul 1, 2014 17:37:54 GMT -8
Hi-
The info about the servants' quarters being on Maple comes from Ed's research from 2003 when he debunked the Hunter theory.
What makes you think, Sandy, that the kid who made the statement lived at that corner? There is no proof that the cab stopped at that corner. And if it had, I doubt anyone got out or was in enough light for anyone across the street to have described the person.
Mike
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2014 19:13:35 GMT -8
Hi- The info about the servants' quarters being on Maple comes from Ed's research from 2003 when he debunked the Hunter theory. What makes you think, Sandy, that the kid who made the statement lived at that corner? There is no proof that the cab stopped at that corner. And if it had, I doubt anyone got out or was in enough light for anyone across the street to have described the person. Mike I was with Ed when we looked up all of that information. I don't remember anything that showed the address that "I" found on Maple as being servants quarters ? The one living at the Maple st address was the brother of the one with his family living at 3799 . Ed must have had one of his "odd ideas" that it was the servants quarters. I am not sure I understand what you mean about no proof the cab stopped on that corner ? That was the corner where they found Stine's body. I am talking about 3799 Washington and Cherry not Maple and Washington. Most of the Sciantarelli family lived at 3799 Washington on Oct 11th 69. They had children and I felt that could be where the witness saw the suspect. ( Only a guess) Ed and I found this out when we were trying to look into Robert E Hunter. That was how we proved Hunter did not live there on Oct 11th 69. Ed didn't know about going to the recorder’s office to check out who owned that house, I showed him how to do that, just like he didn't know about old criss cross directories. I was with him when we looked into KQ, for you, I know he took credit for that as well. I let him take the credit, because he needed the pats on the back. But later resented doing that after his nasty comments and lies he told. Tom got wise to his lies and they are no longer friends partly because of it. Ed and Mike B are the only people I know of who think the cab stopped at Washington and Maple, Zodiac shoots Stine there and drives the cab one more block? I think that is nuts, like his time machine taking him back to 1969 and Ed was able to see Zodiac shoot Stine. And they have the nerve to tell everyone that I am crazy?
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2014 19:20:27 GMT -8
Hi- The info about the servants' quarters being on Maple comes from Ed's research from 2003 when he debunked the Hunter theory. What makes you think, Sandy, that the kid who made the statement lived at that corner? There is no proof that the cab stopped at that corner. And if it had, I doubt anyone got out or was in enough light for anyone across the street to have described the person. Mike I was with Ed when we looked up all of that information. I don't remember anything that showed the address that "I" found on Maple as being servants quarters ? The one living at the Maple st address was the brother of the one with his family living at 3799 . Ed must have had one of his "odd ideas" that it was the servants quarters. I am not sure I understand what you mean about no proof the cab stopped on that corner ? That was the corner where they found Stine's body. I am talking about 3799 Washington and Cherry not Maple and Washington. Most of the Sciantarelli family lived at 3799 Washington on Oct 11th 69. They had children and I felt that could be where the witness saw the suspect. ( Only a guess about the witness) Ed and I found this out when we were trying to look into Robert E Hunter. That was how we proved Hunter did not live there on Oct 11th 69. Ed didn't know about going to the recorder’s office to check out who owned that house, I showed him how to do that, just like he didn't know about old criss cross directories. I was with him when we looked into KQ, for you, I know he took credit for that as well. I let him take the credit, because he needed the pats on the back. But later resented doing that after his nasty comments and lies he told. Tom got wise to his lies and they are no longer friends partly because of it. Ed and Mike B are the only people I know of who think the cab stopped at Washington and Maple, Zodiac shoots Stine there and drives the cab one more block? I think that is nuts, like his time machine taking him back to 1969 and Ed was able to see Zodiac shoot Stine. And they have the nerve to tell everyone that I am crazy?
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2014 20:32:54 GMT -8
Before I met Ed, I had looked into Robert E Hunter and his father. I found that Hunter still owned a home on Lyon st, not far from the crime scene, that he didn't own 3799 Washington. Then found some evidence that Hunter and his wife Silvia ( I think that was her name ?)went to PA around the time of the Stine shooting. It had to do with some papers that were signed by them in PA that were recorded in S.F. When I did meet Ed and told him what I found out about Hunter, he wanted me to show him where I found it, that is when I took him to the recorders office and showed him how to search. I have had a few homes is why I knew about the many records at the recorders office. Ed knew about the current city directories,but had no idea about old ones, he was excited when I told him and we spent many days at different libaries. Now z researchers are paying high dollars for these books at E Bay.
Hunters father lived in Santa Barbara, was still married to his wife in 69. I had an interest in the Donna Lass Case and at that time there was talk that Donna had traveled to the east coast with Hunter Sr. That was hard for me to believe being he was married.I went to S.B. to get that information.
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Post by MikeR on Jul 3, 2014 2:41:10 GMT -8
Hi-
I am trying to figure out how a Sciantarelli 8 year old could have ID'ed anyone, unless you think the crime took place at Wash/Maple. How do they fit into the story at Wash/Cherry? Do you think one of them was at the Robbins' house that night?
Mike
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 3, 2014 9:17:26 GMT -8
Hi- I am trying to figure out how a Sciantarelli 8 year old could have ID'ed anyone, unless you think the crime took place at Wash/Maple. How do they fit into the story at Wash/Cherry? Do you think one of them was at the Robbins' house that night? Mike The Scaintarelli family lived in the same home that was owned by Mignon Augsbury, they had children living there with them on Oct 11th 69. I feel that would be the best place for the witness to get a good look at the man getting out of the cab. Those Sciantarelli's had children living in the house at 3799 and the "other brother"was the one who lived on Maple next to Jackson in the direction of Julius Kahn play ground, as far as I could tell he was single and didn't have children. I felt there was a pretty good chance that the girl "could have" lived at the 3799 address and may have heard the gun shot ? There by causing her to look out the window and see the Zodiac . It is only a thought as to how an 8yr old would be looking out a window at that hour.
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Post by MikeR on Jul 3, 2014 11:22:30 GMT -8
Hi Sandy-
Either you are confused or you are speaking in different terms than I am. Do you feel the murder took place in front of the Augsbury home on Maple/Wash and not the Robbins home at Cherry/Wash? If so, how did the cab end up a block away at Cherry? Why would someone living at the Augsbury home have a good opportunity to see someone getting out of a cab a block away? It sure seems unlikely that Z drove the cab down to Cherry or that it somehow made its way down there uneventfully after Stine was shot.
Mike
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