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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 7, 2014 19:04:21 GMT -8
But going back to the wallet, I have questioned whether Z, upon seeing Fouke & Zelms coming, panicked & tossed the wallet into a near-by bush or hedge maybe but then if he had done that for fear of being stopped and searched, surely he'd also discard the slightly more self incriminating evidence of the Blood soaked piece of Paul's shirt. I mean what we know for sure is that the Zodiac fled with Paul's wallet and Drivers licence, ID and other personal effects of Paul's in his possession. So, if he had Paul's wallet still with him when he had got back to his house, Why does he write the next day in his letter & only offer that he is 'The murderer of taxi driver over by Wash St & Mple st last night." Why doesn't he say 'I am the murderer of Cab Driver Paul Stine On Washington St last night, to prove this, here is a photo-copy of his drivers licence."
Why would he have reason not to name the victim as that adds more credibility and authentication to his claim? If he doesn't return home with Paul's wallet still in his possession, then why and what happened to it?
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Post by Norse on Nov 8, 2014 19:28:06 GMT -8
Interesting question. We know for a fact that he took the wallet. So unless he tossed it away before getting home, he certainly did have it in his possession at the time of writing that letter. Which means that he certainly knew exactly who Stine was - even Z, who seemingly didn't care all that much about precisely who he killed, would have glanced at the ID and observed what his victim's name was.
So, yes - why not mention it in the letter?
Just speculating here, wildly, but there could be several reasons:
1. He didn't really care about his victims, as I said above. They weren't important to him, as individuals, so it makes sense that he just refers to Stine as "the cab driver", even though he did know his name.
2. He knew Stine. So, he pretended not to - by not referring to his name.
3. He wrote the letter prior to the actual murder. *
* I don't consider this a real possibility myself - but others have suggested it in the past.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 9, 2014 12:40:29 GMT -8
I would say of the options above, the first one would likely be the reason. Let's remember to put our priorities in order and remain focused on The Offender & not the victim. That's probably how his subconscious mind worked. We simply will not have the people reading the 'Zodiac' article and then discussing Paul Stine! He must get the attention not Paul because, in Zodiac's warped and self centred head, Paul was just some taxi driver and He, He is the Great On and merits our full attention.
Or, obviously, quite the contrary could be the case and he won't write He is the killer of 'Paul Stine' because that is to acknowledge the victim as a 'He' rather than an 'It' or non human like objet and maybe, just maybe, there was a grain of humanity in him and his subconscious mind knew this and did not allow for the 'Boy' to become David, or 'Kids' to morph into Michael & Darlene and so on. Ted Bundy told John Douglas that if a girl was in his company for more than 15 minutes, she would be safe saying that once a potential victim had engaged him in conversation saying what she was studying, maybe talking about her family etc, he then saw that girl as a human being and a person with emotions and feelings and once that had happened he could not go through with his evil intended plot. He told Douglas that is why he almost always, when the situation allowed, attacked & killed his victims within minutes of encountering them.
Maybe this kind of subconscious self protecting was going on with Zodiac, too? He may not have consciously made a choice to not name any of the vitims by name but rather, his subconscious mind wouldn't allow it because killing would become far less easy when you acknowledge that it's a human being you have just shot in the head rather than a nameless object.
Finally, quick comment on the wallet & ID/Licence of Stine itself. Assuming Zodiac took it and kept hold of it, why hasn't it ever been discovered? If he passes away and his family are clearing his belongings out of his place then coming across a Drivers Licence of someone call Paul Lee Stine should be cause if not for suspicion, then curiosity at least. For the majority of people today, finding Paul's licence they would simply be totally oblivious and unaware of the importance and significance of such a find or just what it is they have in their hands as most people would not recognise Paul as a victim of The Zodiac. Zodiac's Brother, Nephew etc would likely simply throw it away.
Even someone that would know Stine's story and recognise him as a victim of Zodiac is not likely to rush off to the police station with evidence in hand so that they may waste no time in defaming and destroying their loved ones memory and bringing shame on their own family and name in the process. Either way, assuming Zodiac didn't destroy it (burn it for example) or go out of his way to hide it by burying it somewhere (which, if he did, would make the question of why he bothered taking it in the first place even more perplexing) then it must exist somewhere to this very day. The Licence could be residing in some draw full of junk under old and useless stationary just waiting patiently for someone to discover it?
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Post by Norse on Nov 13, 2014 17:07:37 GMT -8
I have often thought that one way in which this case could actually - finally - be solved has to do with precisely what you suggest there, W. If Z is still alive (which is plausible), has a "stash" somewhere in his house or on his property: Stine's wallet, more of his shirt, the bayonet like, "homemade" knife used at LB, or something else (not impossible) - then, yes, such an item can be found and lead to Z's identity finally being discovered.
We just have to hope the right person finds it - and not someone who is liable to throw it out with Z's old felt pens and his wingwalkers...
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Post by Norse on Nov 15, 2014 14:38:54 GMT -8
Mike,
I've been meaning to ask you about this for a while, but it keeps slipping my mind as I wander around in the Z maze: Is it true that one of the Stine witnesses (whom you interviewed some years back) told you that he followed Z down Cherry St? Can you confirm this? And if he did follow him - did he actually see Z turn east on Jackson St?
Norse
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Post by MikeR on Nov 15, 2014 22:21:41 GMT -8
Hi-
He didn't follow him and is unsure in which direction he went when he got to Jackson.
Mike
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Post by Norse on Nov 15, 2014 22:29:58 GMT -8
Thanks for clarifying that, Mike.
Much appreciated!
N.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 19, 2014 9:59:58 GMT -8
Glad you are bringing this up N, because it's simply overlooked or forgotten by many what Pelissetti said, on camera, on the 'Cold Case Files - Zodiac' episode. He stated, and I shall quote word for word, that:
"Another unit stopped someone, A White Guy, and asked if he had seen anything suspicious in the area. The man said 'Yes, someone just ran into the Presidio." End Quote.
This is, like so many other claims, completely at odds with what is now claimed by this same officer who now says that it was not another unit that stopped someone at all but, in fact, it was he himself, Armond Pelissetti, who stopped some white male to ask had he seen anything suspicious and this time he claims the man replied 'No.'
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 19, 2014 10:09:45 GMT -8
That's why I have said for a long time now that Fouke may very well be innocent and did not stop the man he saw and it was actually Armond who spoke to the white male, because A.P freely admits to doing so. A.P tries to claim that this white guy he spoke with,and the white guy Don passed are two different men when, I believe, he knows this not to be the case.
I believe the following took place:
Fouke, responding to the radio call, does see and pass a white guy and then turns onto Cherry where, as both agree, he stops to speak with A.P. A.P informs Fouke the suspect is a white Male and gives him a description and Fuouke, as he admits, tells A.P 'Oh Shit, that was the suspect' referring to the white guy he had just passed. Then, I believe Armond asks Don 'where was he?' and upon Don informing Armond 'He just turned onto a house driveway right at the next blocks intersection' Armond takes off after the man based on Don's new info just given. Don dashes round onto West Pacific fearing the suspect will go through the side ally of the home, into the rear garden and try to scale te backyard fence onto west pacific. Armond arrives at 3712 Jackson and encounters a white male still there, on the driveway, who's simply, Quote 'Just Standing there.' (as he admitted to Butterfield he had.)
Armond then asks the man has he seen anyone suspicious and white guy, AKA Kjell Qvale, says no.
Again, this is why I also hold the opinion that it was Qvale that Fouke saw also.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 19, 2014 18:53:32 GMT -8
Hi-
If you were Z, why would you just stand there for several minutes? You have a gun and Stine's shirt and ID. I'd get the hell home, which is where AP says he first spoke to KQ (in one version of his story).
Mike
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 19, 2014 19:20:38 GMT -8
Hi- If you were Z, why would you just stand there for several minutes? You have a gun and Stine's shirt and ID. I'd get the hell home, which is where AP says he first spoke to KQ (in one version of his story). Mike "If you were Z, why would you just stand there for several minutes?" Well I don't think he remained there through personal choice, but more likely because he was trapped or at least perceived as such. Fouke just passes him, at a minimum slows to a crawl looking at Z or at most, stopping completely & calling him over. Then there's the responding emergency vehicles, Police, Fire & Ambulance, all of which would be doing so with lights flashing, siren's blaring. Put yourself in his wingwalkers. If your the murderer and you've just evaded one unit by some miracle, and have taken cover on a gated driveway that is, for the most-part, out of sight, would you be eager to emerge back onto the sidewalk and simply hope that no other police vehicles responding see you and decide to stop and ask questions? "You have a gun and Stine's shirt and ID." Well, yes you & I assume he would have. But if i'm Z, stumbling along my merry way down Jackson and I look up to see a Blue Meanie Prowl Car coming up the hill then the first thing I am going to immediately do is toss the gun and evidence into a garden, hedge, ally, under a car or any place at all just as long as they are not on my person.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 20, 2014 10:51:29 GMT -8
Hi-
I think that there was a pattern to Z's behavior that night and it was essentially this in plain Scottish: He didn't really give a shit about anything or anybody. Think about it: If you were Z and had just killed someone and had a pretty long block to walk up, wouldn't you sort of hustle? The kids said he was in ho hurry to get up Cherry. He certainly didn't run up the street. The kids don't even feel he ever looked at them. He apparently wasn't afraid if someone was watching and/or they might call the police. And then when he could have gone into the dark park, he decides to take a jaunt down Jackson Street and expose himself down an even longer block. If he were en guard, he would have been hypervigilant when he spotted headlights approaching from the east and ducked behind a car or into someone's property assuming that it was a cop car until proven otherwise. Instead, he just continues merrily walking down the street and but for luck of the draw and the description being wrong, he could have allowed himself to be captured or at least get into a shootout with the police. After all, he could have had no idea that Fouke and Zelms were unaware that they were looking for a white guy. Z would have had to assumed that the description from any witnesses who would have seen him at the crime scene was of someone just like him, unless he had a mobile police scanner under his jacket that gave him a bit of a barrel chest.
Mike
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Sandy
Moderator
Zodiac Killer Mystery Moderator
Posts: 428
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Post by Sandy on Nov 20, 2014 10:51:42 GMT -8
Hello all - and thanks to the staff for welcoming me to the forum! WelshChappie: I enjoyed reading your thoughts and theories over on Morf's forum and I'm very glad to see that you're still in the business of thinking outside the box about the Z case - the latter is probably precisely what is needed! As I recall you sent in a FOIA request regarding the kid (described as an 8 year old) who seemingly identified the person who emerged from Paul Stine's cab on the night of the murder. Have you heard back from the authorities regarding this? Very interested to hear if there's been any developments regarding this. All the best, Norse Welcome to the board Norse, I am sure you have read my thoughts on where Zodiac went after shooting Stine. It is my belief he was either renting a room near Maple and Washington , or he was house sitting ? There was also construction on a few of the home there at that time and my suspect was in construction, I believe that because he was still doing that in the 90’s. At the last task force meeting Oct 11th 2014 ,I did ask about the 8yr old witness but the Det there didn’t know anything about that and he worked the case in the 1970’s. The Berryessa knife I believe was left a crime scene on Mt Tam. It was picked up by an” ignorant reporter” who was covering the Trailside murders, so the prints were gone of the attacker. I would love to see a picture of that knife. It was the same exact size of the lake Berryessa knife, what are the odds of it not being the same knife ? I am not saying Zodiac was the trailside killer, but I do believe he may have done the ones who were not raped and the couple up north of there. (It is sort of like fishermen who follow other fishermen to get the most fish so to speak ) Having Welch C. here with us is our gain and everyone else’s loss, because he is so very good at investigating and he is a good person, I like him very much ! I never understood why he would be booted, except that there are people who like having the power to boot for no good reason at all, too bad for them.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 20, 2014 11:35:49 GMT -8
Sandy, Mike, my apologies for this quick post but I have not read both your comments above yet and it's not being ignorant or dismissive because I press 'create post' to publish this post I am going back to read each of your replies. My reason for wanting to post quickly is that I want to ask anyone who may know anything of the witness mentioned by the narrator in episode of 'Cld Cse Files - Zodiac.'
It could be just error on the researchers part, may even be a deliberate ploy to protect the witness ID (The show does wrongly announce Z shot Paul on 'October 10th' so it may be another poor effort at case research). In this episode one of the witnesses who is said by the Narrator to hav e seen Zodiac at the cab is referred to as "A teenage GIRL happens to look out the window and sees the crime in progress."
It then states that "The girls Brother picks up the phone and calls police."
Who is this girl? She isn't mentioned in the Pelissetti police report, nor can she obviously be the eight year old witness as she's referred to as a teenage girl. Is this as I suspect, a gender error in description either mistakenly or deliberate?
I mean enough now, The Meanies are all bombing around Pacific Heights chasing a man who is Black because the SFPD cannot understand the difference between Black and White and if it now emerges that they don't know what gender a witness is/was then I am walking away from this case muttering to myself....
"Evaded capture because he's a criminal genius?? Pfffft! The highly trained San Francisco PD are radioing all unitsx to BOTL for a black man because the 911 call agent is a Klan Mamber and is taking the 911 call in the office wearing his pillow case over his head and is overly excited to shout over the dispatcher radio "All units, BLACK man shot cab driver, repeat, black man, that's Black B-L-A-C-K, not to be confused with that very similar colour called, ermmm, WHITE.
Then they get a witness come forward who is most obviously, 'Eight year old teenage witness who is female untill the point when she's not."
I'm going now before I start banging my head against a wall. Crack Proof Zodiac? More like Crack-head dispatchers on radio "White....No, Black, No, wait, hang on, yes black, no it's a white man, white man that was once black.....Leave me alone!!
Lol
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Sandy
Moderator
Zodiac Killer Mystery Moderator
Posts: 428
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Post by Sandy on Nov 21, 2014 22:13:29 GMT -8
That's ok W.C.
The teen age girl was one of the teen's across the street from the crime scene, it was her brother that made the phone 911 call.
My guess is that when the dispacher aked the boy for a dicription of the shooter, he may have said it was very dark and she thought he was giving a discription of a black man.
I seem to remember that that boy went outside and watched the shooter turn right on Jackson st.
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