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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 25, 2014 6:03:02 GMT -8
That's ok W.C. The teen age girl was one of the teen's across the street from the crime scene, it was her brother that made the phone 911 call. My guess is that when the dispacher aked the boy for a dicription of the shooter, he may have said it was very dark and she thought he was giving a discription of a black man. I seem to remember that that boy went outside and watched the shooter turn right on Jackson st. Hey Sandy, you said: " My guess is that when the dispacher aked the boy for a dicription of the shooter, he may have said it was very dark and she thought he was giving a discription of a black man." Possible hun, can't prove that this isn't the cause for the mix up in 'Black' vs 'White' Male given to responding patrol cars but me personally, I don't believe a word of the wrong race of suspect given story that was not mentioned in any reports or recorded accounts until Z write and states the police are so incompetent & stupid that they stopped him on Jackson St and he assisted them in their search for the suspect by directing them up the hill to chase phantoms. Then, & only then, when The SFPD know that the public's confidence in the Dpt's. competence will be destroyed do we see the excuse first appear and some dispatcher awarded the blame in order to give them reason as to why they had the killer within 6 ft of them & proceeded to drive off thanking him for his help. I have been highly critical of the SFPD for many reasons but I can't accept that the Dpt. surpasses incompetence & moves into total stupidity. The 911 dispatchers, like the Officers they send to incidents, are trained to a high standard & will not be the type of personality to get excited or confused while taking a 911 call. These people are taking life & death emergency calls & it's paramount they remain calm & focused so they get the emotionally charged caller's details & calm them down themselves. I just refuse to believe that this dispatcher, who seems to him/herself to be nameless phantom, hears the teen say something to the effect of: "He's just robbed a cab driver, it's 10.00pm Mr Dispatcher so it's black outside" & the 911 jumps on the radio "All units, possible robbery of cab driver at W & C st's with suspect outside who's black." My response to that rhymes with Pull Frit. If the kid was describing the lighting outside then he wouldn't refer to it as being 'Black' He/She would likely say 'Dark outside' or something similar & even then why would the dispatcher need to be informed that due to it being 10:00pm in the month of October, it is currently quite dark outside? Do the SFPD need to be informed of this in advance too? Lol. The offender wore navy blue wind-breaker, Rust Brown trousers & Tan colored boots = Nothing that can be given as 'Black.' Finally: Armond arrives on scene & the caller is outside & immediately converses with Armond & straight away declares that the responsible white male just walked off seconds before Aromond pulled up. Sounds to me that this witness is clear & concise as to the Race of the person responsible. My humble (Oil - Hehe) opinion? The claim is fabricated to limit the damage of having to now admit they at the very least saw Z that night & didn't stop & or apprehend him.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 26, 2014 15:28:47 GMT -8
Hi- I think that there was a pattern to Z's behavior that night and it was essentially this in plain Scottish: He didn't really give a shit about anything or anybody. Think about it: If you were Z and had just killed someone and had a pretty long block to walk up, wouldn't you sort of hustle? The kids said he was in ho hurry to get up Cherry. He certainly didn't run up the street. The kids don't even feel he ever looked at them. He apparently wasn't afraid if someone was watching and/or they might call the police. And then when he could have gone into the dark park, he decides to take a jaunt down Jackson Street and expose himself down an even longer block. If he were en guard, he would have been hypervigilant when he spotted headlights approaching from the east and ducked behind a car or into someone's property assuming that it was a cop car until proven otherwise. Instead, he just continues merrily walking down the street and but for luck of the draw and the description being wrong, he could have allowed himself to be captured or at least get into a shootout with the police. After all, he could have had no idea that Fouke and Zelms were unaware that they were looking for a white guy. Z would have had to assumed that the description from any witnesses who would have seen him at the crime scene was of someone just like him, unless he had a mobile police scanner under his jacket that gave him a bit of a barrel chest. Mike I have said much the same myself Mike. " And then when he could have gone into the dark park, he decides to take a jaunt down Jackson Street and expose himself down an even longer block." To my knowledge, I was the first to ask the question why didn't he duck onto West Pacific & The Presidio at Cherry St? I had never asked this for a long time because I simply wasn't aware that there was an entrance at Cherry into the Presidio and when using Google maps one day I saw that there was, I then had serious trouble believing that Zodiac was heading for the park or the General Presidio. " If he were en guard, he would have been hypervigilant when he spotted headlights approaching from the east and ducked behind a car or into someone's property assuming that it was a cop car until proven otherwise." Again, totally agree. This is why I have tried to find out whether Fouke was responding & coming up the hill on Jackson Street with his emergency red lights and/or siren activated? I am with you 100% on that & agree that if your the offender fleeing the scene of a murder you've just committed then every set of headlights you see coming your way you will, or even must, assume belong to a police vehicle until you can prove otherwise. Your not going to keep walking toward the car just hoping or believing it's not a cop car & leave it to the point where the cop is now 75 yards away & closing fast before you realize it is a cop car & now is the time to take evasive measures by putting your head down, turning to the side to now have yourself facing away from the police as the come alongside parallel with you, and walk away from them & their direction up some steps & along a drive. Not only is it now far too late because the cop has almost certainly seen you but all you've now done is made yourself appear very, very suspicious by your own actions. You'd be better off & more likely to avoid the cops being drawn to you if you continued on Jackson past 3712. I think he took those steps & onto that driveway not to avoid the approaching police car (he surely knew that they'd seen him because of the close proximity between Himself & them) & knew by turning up the steps this would draw the cops attention to him but he did it to discard the incriminating items he had in his pocket, ie: Pieces of bloody shirt & 9mm murder weapon. Quickly throw these into the bushes that align the driveway & then when, as Z himself says, "This cop car pulled up & one of them called me over" he won't be found with these on him. People will probably point to this not helping with him being 'covered in blood.' There is no evidence for this at all. The witnesses calling the incident in did so by simply reporting that a cab driver robbery was taking place & said it appeared at one time that the driver & passenger were struggling or wrestling with each other. That's why the radio call was given to the units, as Aromond Pelissetti recalls: " We responded to a radio call... Told us that a cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry & Washington Streets in Pacific Heights." The teens never heard a shot fired so did not, and could not, know that the driver was critically wounded by a bullet to the head nor did they tell the 911 dispatcher that the guy, who is now outside the passenger side of the cab & walking around to the drivers side under street lights, is 'covered in blood.' In fact, after seeing the man both inside the cab, then outside as he does the equivalent of a serial killers cat walk offering a view from all sides & angles of himself, the witness/witnesses watching him don't tell the 911 operator of any visible blood on this man at all, nor do they tell Armond as he arrives on scene which, had they viewed the suspect with blood on him, would have no doubt told any cop about to take off after him. Not only would it be in any cops interest to know this for purposes of easily identifying the suspect should the catch up with him, but also be of interest for the officer to know for his own personal safety.
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Post by KJ on Nov 27, 2014 11:19:42 GMT -8
Possibly something along these lines:
"Did you get a good look at the man? What did he look like?" "...I'm not sure; it's very dark."
Could have been misheard as "I'm not sure; he's very dark".
Admittedly a competent dispatcher ought to have double-checked to clarify, but it's not a crazy idea.
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Post by KJ on Nov 27, 2014 11:32:40 GMT -8
To my knowledge, I was the first to ask the question why didn't he duck onto West Pacific & The Presidio at Cherry St? Here's one possibility. People like to stick to the plan they have rather than improvising. Let's assume that Z's original intention was to leave the cab at Washington/Maple, then walk up Maple and through to the Presidio. He knows this route. He's happy with it. He's walked it several times in preparation. But he doesn't come up with contingency plans and walk alternate routes. On the night, something throws him off his plan. There's somebody at W/M, perhaps, or maybe he thinks that Stine has put the car into park but he actually hasn't, so when Stine is shot the car starts to roll forward in drive, and Z has to improvise, bringing the car under control and steering it down to Cherry. (I actually have some time for this hypothesis; it coincides with the blood patterns on Stine and it helps to explain the absence of gunshots heard at Cherry.) At any rate, Z has to effect his exit at a location other than the one for which he was planning. Is it possible for Z to get through the Presidio by walking through the end of Cherry? Yes it is. But maybe Z simply hasn't walked that route and wants to stick to the exit he knows and for which he has planned, at the top of Maple. So he takes Jackson because in his mind it's the simplest way to get back to his planned route, his familiar route. He may well have overestimated the amount of time he has, as well: maybe he expects the cops to come in five minutes, not two. If he'd known the cops were going to be arriving quickly he would have opted for the Cherry exit as the more prudent plan.
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Post by MikeR on Nov 27, 2014 17:37:53 GMT -8
Hi-
The unsatisfying part of that explanation is that Z got to know the neighborhood well enough to be comfortable killing there but didn't know he could escape into the park at the end of Cherry. It implies both an intimate understanding of the neighborhood and an glaring ignorance of it at the same time.
Is it possible? Sure. But while it is also possible that the cab rolled a block there is no concrete evidence to say that it did other than an interpretation of blood stains. The theory also does not explain why nobody heard a shot at Maple. And if it were possible for Z to shoot Stine at Maple and have nobody hear it (i.e., because nobody did hear such a shot), it is also possible that he shot Stine at Cherry and nobody heard it.
Mike
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Post by KJ on Nov 27, 2014 18:12:40 GMT -8
One of the big differences at Maple is that the buildings on the north side of the street (on both corners) are large mansion-like affairs set quite a way back from the street itself. (They are both L-shaped, with no actual building at the corner in either case.) It makes perfect sense that Z would choose this intersection as the prime choice in the area: there is no better spot for drawing a wide radius around yourself and being likely to have no people in it when you discharge a firearm. With a suppressor, inside a closed vehicle, maybe it was enough.
And I'm not saying that Z didn't know the area at the northern end of Cherry - not necessarily, anyway. I'm saying more that he visualized a particular route out of the park, and stuck with it. This is pretty common behaviour for most people.
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Post by KJ on Nov 27, 2014 18:18:34 GMT -8
Sorry, correction, NW corner building is not L-shaped but it is set back from the corner, to the west and to the north.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 28, 2014 12:32:58 GMT -8
One of the big differences at Maple is that the buildings on the north side of the street (on both corners) are large mansion-like affairs set quite a way back from the street itself. (They are both L-shaped, with no actual building at the corner in either case.) It makes perfect sense that Z would choose this intersection as the prime choice in the area: there is no better spot for drawing a wide radius around yourself and being likely to have no people in it when you discharge a firearm. With a suppressor, inside a closed vehicle, maybe it was enough. And I'm not saying that Z didn't know the area at the northern end of Cherry - not necessarily, anyway. I'm saying more that he visualized a particular route out of the park, and stuck with it. This is pretty common behaviour for most people. But that just doesn't make sense at all. What your suggesting is the Zodiac was so extremely stubborn that he'd prefer to get apprehended than change his planned route of escape. He arrives at Jackson & Cherry Intersection and looks right down Jackson Street & see's headlights in the far distance & tell's himself "It may be the pigs coming up this street. However, I shall ignore this escape route at hand that is 15 feet in front of me across the road and turn down this public street & take my chances. If he did that then he deserves to feature on 'Worlds Dumbest Criminals.' " I'm saying more that he visualized a particular route out of the park, and stuck with it." I'd not worry about hypothetically visualizing a specific route & worry more about visualizing the very real blue meanie in his prowl car heading up Jackson Street.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 28, 2014 12:48:33 GMT -8
In my opinion, there is almost zero chance that Z was intending to, or making his way toward, Julius Kahn Park. I could, I freely admit, be totally wrong in this assumption but I form the opinion based on two very clear facts:
A) The ground was searched with 5 dogs, high powered search lights & a small army of SFPD officers so thoroughly that The SFPD Chief of Inspectors stated in public that there is no way Z was in JK park & that He (Z) is a liar. Chief Lee stated: "We searched that entire area tree by tree & bush by bush. A mouse couldn't have escaped our attention. He wasn't anywhere in the vicinity of the park."
B) If he had been intent on escaping via the Park then to ignore Cherry entrance (once He's gone the extra block) in favor of Maple is just sheer idiocy.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 28, 2014 13:27:09 GMT -8
Norse going back to the idea of there being more than one person behind this series of crimes, there are many things Z not only did that possibly suggested more than one killer, but he said some things or made certain comments that seem odd & out of place.
If you've read 'This is the Zodiac Speaking: Into the Mind of a Serial Killer' which was Co-Authored by David Van-Nuys then it's clear that Van-Nuys, in analyzing the Z's letters, finds an instant oddity in the frequent opening declaration of "This is the Zodiac Speaking."
V-Nuys mentions several times that he finds the killers choice of words here very odd. He point to the killer referring to himself as 'THE Zodiac Speaking' which V-N questions the reason he would do this? He asks "Why not just say 'This is Zodiac Speaking"? Van-Nuys, in the end, ascribes this emphasis on 'The Zodiac' rather than simply 'Zodiac' to the writers ego. The writer want's to tell his audience that He is 'The Zodiac', The One & Only! The Only One we need to give our attention to. It could be that, but it could also be suggestive of a second possibility.
The writer may be attempting to, without even consciously realizing he's doing it, attempting to answer a question that nobody ever asked. To say he is 'The Z' is to attempt to distinguish yourself from other things/places/people etc that are called Zodiac. For example, if I were to say I have 'The Signed copy of John Lennon Single 'Imagine' then I am implying that either there is only one signed copy of this single in existence and/or that the one I have is genuine & original. I would be telling potential buyers that this is 'The Signed Original', not to be confused with the many other non-original copies. The one I have for sale is 'The Signed Original' & not A copy thereof.
Was Z trying to answer the question of 'How many people are behind this set of attacks?' before the question is even asked? If so, why?
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Post by KJ on Nov 28, 2014 15:09:03 GMT -8
But that just doesn't make sense at all. What your suggesting is the Zodiac was so extremely stubborn that he'd prefer to get apprehended than change his planned route of escape. He arrives at Jackson & Cherry Intersection and looks right down Jackson Street & see's headlights in the far distance & tell's himself "It may be the pigs coming up this street. However, I shall ignore this escape route at hand that is 15 feet in front of me across the road and turn down this public street & take my chances. Couple of points: 1) I am not saying that Z is being stubborn. I'm saying that he just naturally sticks to his initial plan at Jackson/Cherry rather than rerouting. This is because when he reaches Jackson, there may be no immediate sign of danger and this is because: 2) It seems possible to me - although you may know better - that at the time Z makes his decision to go east, he can't see any oncoming lights at all, certainly not flashing lights. He may think he's in no pressing danger. Visibility east from Cherry is pretty good across to Presidio Avenue, but do we know for sure that the car driven by Foulkes and Zelms is visible at that time in the six blocks Z can see eastwards at that moment? (Assuming his eyesight is good; and what if he IS wearing Stine's glasses at this point, incidentally?) Remember, if Zodiac is walking at a conventional pace (which by the kids' account he was), the time from Jackson/Cherry to 3712 Jackson is somewhere around 80 seconds. So for a cop car to intercept Z at 3712 Jackson, it is probably starting quite a distance away when Z is still at Cherry: around 700m at a rough estimate, depending on how fast it can move through stop signs. Could be visible. Might not be. I'm also not sure from which road Foukes and Zelms turned west onto Jackson. Now obviously at SOME point Z can see that a cop car is coming. The key question is: WHEN does he see it? If he's halfway along the Jackson block by the time he clocks the cop car coming westwards, he has to choose between turning around to escape (which runs the risk of making him look immediately suspicious) or just playing it cool. If this is what happened, it seems he opts for the latter. Now I am by no means committed to this thesis. You may be entirely correct that Z actually took Cherry due north out of the neighborhood, and Foukes's man is not Z. I'm just positing a hypothetical chain of events by which Zodiac does turn east on Jackson without being an incompetent buffoon.
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Post by KJ on Nov 28, 2014 15:22:16 GMT -8
The ground was searched with 5 dogs, high powered search lights... Yeah, I doubt he hid in the park. I think there's a specific reason that Z commits the killing close to the Presidio: he wants to escape through the Presidio. He might have walked THROUGH Julius Kahn Park, but I think he simply keeps going, northwards. I agree that the best route for Z would have been to continue north, on Cherry. As I say, I think a combination of sticking with a default and a lack of awareness of how quickly the cops would turn up could have led him to turn eastwards on Jackson. I'm sure that this has been discussed several times before, but...there's also the issue of Z claiming to have been stopped by a cop. You think he invents this and gets lucky that it corresponds with what happened? (Could he have learned about it by some other means?)
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Post by KJ on Nov 28, 2014 15:25:38 GMT -8
One other possible element in play: Z may prefer a zig-zag route to a straight line. If there were any witnesses at W/C (Z didn't know), maybe he didn't want them to see him clearly heading north to the Presidio. They would see him head east and have no idea where he was going after that.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 28, 2014 18:03:51 GMT -8
KJ....
I wasn't dismissing what you offered out of hand & made the point myself that: " I could, I freely admit, be totally wrong in this assumption."
I just disagree in regards to why Z stayed on the street if he really was 'stumbling' his merry way to the park. Why use Jackson to get you there when West Pacific is an alternative option? Whether Z did see lights as he turned onto Jax street off Cherry is not really relevant because the point I am making is this: If there is two options for Him as the offender with option A being to stay o a public sidewalk under streetlights with homes all the way along this route & potential police vehicles could at any moment turn onto Jax St instigating an encounter with cops and/or witnessed walking toward Maple by any number of occupants vs B: Duck through Cherry entrance onto the unlit quiet road that can get you to your Park just as well as Jax St can but this option of West Pacific would significantly reduce your potential for capture & also remove the possibility for witnesses to see you with clarity under lighted conditions then for me, whether there is car lights on Jackson St or not is not really relevant. Why any offender would not opt for Cherry St's entrance if they are truly heading for the Park or General Grounds of The Presidio for that matter, I just don't know.
"It seems possible to me - although you may know better..." I do. I just so happen to know absolutely everything i'm afraid. ;-)
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Post by KJ on Nov 28, 2014 19:28:34 GMT -8
Well, the utterly causal way in which Z cleans down the cab and saunters off suggests a man who is attempting to slip out confidently and casually, not someone who is desperate to get out of the light as quickly as possible. It seems probable that he is thinking that there were no witnesses and that no cops are coming, certainly at the time he reaches Cherry and Jackson, so it doesn't seem pressing to him to take the absolute safest route. (There are still constraints on this strategy, of course: he doesn't want to hang around in the area smoking a cigarette, one assumes.) He wants to leave, but not in a way that calls attention to himself. Z is quite likely thinking that people won't discover Stine's body for quite some time, and that he hasn't been spotted.
Still, walking casually north on Cherry seems to be just as reasonable as walking casually north along Jackson. However, turning east on Jackson does have the advantage of getting out of the line of site of the crime's location as quickly as possible. As I suggested above, maybe it's a natural instinct for a quarry to jink in a zig-zag rather than going in a straight line and maintaining line of sight to what one assumes is the epicentre of pursuit.
One other thought that occurred to me: if someone told me that a car would be arriving soon at Washington and Cherry, I would instinctively assume that it would be arriving from the east, south or west. Because the road to the north ends fairly soon in a dead end, it's possible that your brain shuts it off as a likely path of arrival, even though this is a mistaken inference. It's a kind of backward chain of reasoning: if I were going to drive to Washington and Cherry, I would take the simplest route possible, which in most cases is to find Washington, turn onto it and drive to Cherry. Or if I'm coming from the south, possibly find Cherry then drive north. Maybe Z didn't really consider it likely that cops would be driving west along Jackson to reach Cherry, then south. (I'm not saying this is some overt calculation; it's more like instinctive reasoning.)
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