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Post by Ricardo on Jul 3, 2016 22:26:01 GMT -8
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jul 4, 2016 13:55:22 GMT -8
Fascinating stuff,Ricardo.
One at least gets a sense of the surrounding landscape at L.H.R and B.R.S.P. - slightly more ''sprawling'' than I had first imagined.
I took the opportunity of looking at the city map - and had not realized the vastness of The Presidio.I had walked through part of it,about ten years ago - but had not realized how far it stretches back,from the Bay.
I was fortunate enough to stay at the Mark Hopkins [?] Hotel - one of the few ''really tall'' buildings in S.F.- The ''Top of the Mark'',a cocktail lounge,is recommended as having the best views of the Bay.I concur !
Great cocktails,as well.
The first line in ''Bullit'',is Steve McQueen telling a taxi driver : ''Take me to the 'Mark' ''.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jul 5, 2016 9:03:15 GMT -8
Taking into account,a few basic premises - that the murders for which Zodiac is actually ''wanted'',all took place in the ''provinces'' of San Francisco,until the Paul Stine murder ; that senior policeman Martin Lee was convinced that Zodiac did not hang around long,after the Paul Stine murder ; that the proximity of the Golden Gate bridge to Paul Stine's murder ,represents the ''gateway'' to a possible ''getaway'' for Zodiac,back to the ''provinces'',it all looks like a ''done deal'' for Zodiac's ''extrication'',following Stine's execution [?].
Apart from being spirited up by aliens,it looks on paper,all very obvious - Zodiac had to get back over the Golden Gate bridge,before,he assessed,that road blocks would,or might be,set up.
If anyone has information on any ''more peripheral'' measures that the police employed,following Paul Stine's murder,it would be of interest.
''Planning'' and ''Strategy'' - this was Zodiac's forte [?].Malice aforethought,to the nth degree [?].
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Post by Ricardo on Jul 5, 2016 23:29:37 GMT -8
Taking into account,a few basic premises - that the murders for which Zodiac is actually ''wanted'',all took place in the ''provinces'' of San Francisco,until the Paul Stine murder ; that senior policeman Martin Lee was convinced that Zodiac did not hang around long,after the Paul Stine murder ; that the proximity of the Golden Gate bridge to Paul Stine's murder ,represents the ''gateway'' to a possible ''getaway'' for Zodiac,back to the ''provinces'',it all looks like a ''done deal'' for Zodiac's ''extrication'',following Stine's execution [?]. Apart from being spirited up by aliens,it looks on paper,all very obvious - Zodiac had to get back over the Golden Gate bridge,before,he assessed,that road blocks would,or might be,set up. If anyone has information on any ''more peripheral'' measures that the police employed,following Paul Stine's murder,it would be of interest. ''Planning'' and ''Strategy'' - this was Zodiac's forte [?].Malice aforethought,to the nth degree [?]. At first, the police thought Paul Stine was murdered by a robber. The police learned that the murderer was the Zodiac killer when they read the letter which was mailed on October 13, 1969, with the blood stained piece of Paul Stine's shirt. Even if the police had set up road blocks on the Golden Gate Bridge, the Zodiac killer did not have to use the Golden Gate Bridge to escape. The Zodiac killer could have used the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge. The Zodiac killer could have driven to the South Bay. The Zodiac killer could have gone to somewhere in San Francisco. It is open to speculation if the Zodiac killer was in the Presidio Heights watching the police search the night of the murder.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jul 6, 2016 7:46:13 GMT -8
Yes,these are pertinent points made,Ricardo.I am making more broad based observations,and endeavoring to look at The Paul Stine murder,from Zodiac's perspective.
Over the years,there is a tendency to take out a magnify glass,and examine the minutia - when it might serve better to look at the crime,with an overview [?].
The more I read about it,the more it becomes apparent that Law Enforcement,as a whole collective,are convinced that firstly,The Stine murder represents a ''one-off excursion'' for Zodiac - and that secondly,he did not hang around in the proximity for very long.
Granted,the police had no initial connection to Zodiac.But,of course,this murder was very public and very bloody - and involved a city servant,doing his job.Therefore was ''high profile'',from the word ''go''.Hence road blocks would have been a police option,in any or all directions,almost immediately.
Paul Stine was murdered around 10 p.m. Saturday evening,and it wasn't until Tuesday morning when the SF Chronicle received a letter and shirt sample,that Zodiac's connection became apparent.That was Zodiac's ''window of opportunity'' to convince the authorities,that he had remained in the area,following Stine's shooting,and,as it transpires,he wasn't able to do this.In a further letter [Nov.9th],he again referred to the murder - but that was four weeks later.So,''we'' are fairly confident that Zodiac had left the proximity of the murder - but,how far did he travel [?] - and was it on foot,or by car [?].
Given Zodiac's state - bloodied,and probably hard of hearing,it certainly looks as if he would have felt more secure,leaving the area all together.Just attempting to get to a ''so called'' safe house,would have possibly attracted more and more attention [?].Making a ''B-line'' for a specifically parked car seems the most convincing scenario [?].
So,then we ask ourselves,where might Zodiac be heading ? Though we can't be certain,I think the answer is,at the very least,just to remove himself from the headland that is the city.Given the murder location,then the Golden Gate bridge is closest.Indeed,the Bay Bridge is a possibility,but still a good four miles to make,and in city ''conditions'' [?].Heading south [?] - again possible,but the San Mateo bridge is a long distance away,and one must bear in mind the San Francisco headland more readily comes under the jurisdiction of,at least,a well coordinated police communication network [?].Whereas a ''provincial'' destination represents a greater chance to ''get lost''.
It's The Golden Gate,for me,in a motorcar ''every time''.Sometimes the word ''speculation'' can be used all too readily.One only has to look at the probability and cutting down the odds of being stopped,from Zodiac's perspective.
He just wanted out of there - and knowing that the odds would be on his side.
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Post by Davb on Sept 24, 2016 9:16:25 GMT -8
SFPD brought in dogs at Stines murder right ? SFPD should have through them been able to tell the trail of the killer as he fled ,or had a good assumtion they were tracking Z and where the dogs stopped tracking him ,unless Z to steps to counter it . but LE is keeping that to themselves .
I think stopping at Maple st might have also been z checking to see if his ride away from the site was there, down the street , so all the killer had to do was get out of sight of the scene and take off with an accomplis. With another in a car that could canvas the neighborhood , if he is not parked in a certain spot when Z arrives at Maple & Wash the deal is off . maybe Z liked the Bullet movie ,kinda what they did
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Sept 24, 2016 12:48:54 GMT -8
Very interesting,to read your comments,Davb.I am very much,of the opinion,that ''Zodiac'' extricated himself,from the area of Stine's execution,by motorcar.
Whether this was with the assistance of a ''getaway'' driver [...as you have intimated [?]....],or making a B-Line for his own parked car,we may never know.Unless of course,a ''single'' Zodiac,is brought to justice.
It is indeed the case,that there was much [understandable] confusion,in the short time following Stine's murder.Not least,what transpired with respect to police response.
A decision was undoubtedly taken,to bring in dogs.So it is my understanding,these dogs were employed for the exclusive use of searching a nearby park.As is documented,the dogs turned up nothing.
Other options would have been available to the police.Not least,the use of roadblocks - and the employment of a large number of police,to conduct ''house to house'' searches,in the vicinity.
Granted that this was a particularly nasty and very public crime - but one can see,particularly in light of the time of day [...11 p.m - 12 p.m,Saturday evening...],that ''house to house'' would have been an extreme and anti-social measure.
The nature of Paul Stine's murder was replicated many times,over thirty years in Northern Ireland,and in built up conurbations,like Belfast,circa 1970-2000.Usually,''eye for eye'' revenge attacks,between The Irish Republican Army and Ulster Defense Association.Often,the very same crime - the execution of a Taxi Driver.
In these cases,the usual response would be to deploy the British Army,who would arrive ''en masse'',setting up road blocks,and conducting ''house to house'' searches into the long hours of the night,often ''turfing'' local residents into the street,who would have to stand around shivering and worrying that both they and the Army might be picked off by snipers - which sometimes did happen.
But that was an urban war,going on.
Naturally,The Paul Stine murder was ''tourist friendly'' San Francisco,in peacetime.No such extreme measures were deployed.
I am confident that the SFPD understand that they did what they could,in the circumstances.And,whether Zodiac ''flew the nest'' with,or without an accomplice,he was ''gone''.
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Post by Davb on Sept 24, 2016 17:25:33 GMT -8
True Rubislaw 32 the police bring attack dogs 1st usually but any big city has bloodhounds or equivalent that could track the man as he left the cab even hours after it happened , even 10 hours sometimes ,it's amazing what they can do . I cannot see them not employing a scent hound .they spend $$$ on them and prove their worth by just this type of incident . An article I saw said it was wisps of fog in the area that night which I think hurts the dogs ability a bit.
I also think it was a possibility that the motive for Stine killing was to get the cab . Z stated he would drive around killing random people on the weekend ,if he posed as the driver ,not hard to do after cleaning up the cab and ditching Paul ,with a silenced gun laying on the frt. pass seat say under a newspaper he could start picking up riders ,wait till he was on a deserted street then shoot them thru the frt. seat , then reset , with so many cabs there, I would think he could get away with it for a while 1 hour 2 ? ...he gets 6-12 people ....just what he said he would do .... can you imagine the headlines in every newspaper in the country ZODIAC DOES WHAT HE SAID KILLS 12 it would strike terror in everyone in the S F metro and make the police look inept. it could shut down some businesses,schools
That Summer of Love concert was a 2 day event for sure over 100k attendies, camping too, he could have went back to it just a mile away .
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Sept 24, 2016 18:42:32 GMT -8
Yes,that does seem to be the one area,of ''mystery'' for me.....being that if sniffer dogs were readily available,and were indeed employed to search the park [.....with no stone left unturned,so we have been informed.....],how it was that the dogs were never taken to the actual crime scene [?].One would have thought that dogs,might have least be able to lead police to a spot where Stine's perpetrator ''flew the nest''.....i.e. A getaway spot [?].
As for the rest of the post crime police decisions,most of it ''stands up to reason''.Given the public nature of the crime,the police have to consider the social implications of their actions [?].
I simply can't see that commandeering a cab,after murdering the driver,then going on to use it as a means of killing others,is really viable [?].Not unless the perpetrator was hell bent on being stopped,and taken out by the cops [!].Zodiac was in town for one purpose - to prove that his ''reach'' of terror stretched beyond the provinces - to have the city cops after him,as well as the ''local'' ones.
Yes,that concert must have,at least ''twigged'' with the SFPD.Possibly,in their initial assessment of the type of person that might have been inclined to have murdered a ''cabbie'',on a Saturday evening [?].
But,that all changed on the following Tuesday morning,with the SF Chronicle receiving the shirt sample,and Zodiac's letter of confession.
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Post by Davb on Sept 25, 2016 9:04:31 GMT -8
how would the cops know to stop 912 ? at least right away ...they wouldn't and so many cabs back then he heard Stines voice he could fake a radio call to buy time , I don't think all cabbies had to call in every fair a dozen victims maybe too much to try but 2-3 trips I can't see a big problem for him , yes the way it unfolded the kids seeing him ,bet Z knew he was seen , it was idiotic to try it then. If it was just him not a team effort , the cab could be his getaway most of those Presideo Heights homes have a unused room or big foyer up front that the residents are not in as much , so on the street somewhat isolated also many of the residents wwent out on Saturday night Dinner , Movie or such regularly . I suggest Zodiac gave Stine a large bill and said "keep it" now Paul it at ease, here is a rich guy going to a rich place the last thing he thinks is some trouble from Z when I rode in cabs back then the driver had you lock both rear doors ,partly so the rider could not easily escape with out paying but also that when you arrived at a destination a thug wouldn't be able to step up and open the door to rob him and the rider making them drive away I bet z really wanted to write on the cars as at berryessa to show it was him. that would be a gradiose action taking the cab for killing , but attention whore he is . ever seen this article ? www.weeklystandard.com/signs-of-the-zodiac/article/751404
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Sept 25, 2016 11:21:37 GMT -8
A good article posted,and another incite on how it played out for some members of the press.Indeed,Zodiac presented himself as ''A perfect KGO-TV nutcase story'' [!].Interesting stuff,about the ''showman'' lawyer Melvin Belli,also.
That Zodiac had the balls to do some ''tidying up'' at the scene of Stine's murder,is one thing - but I don't think that any further activity,would have been prudent [?].
Expressed claims,like ''Kill Rampage'' were part of Zodiac's ''persona'' - the exaggerations of a ''Bluffer'' and ''Bounder'' - who actually had no intention of overly risking his real identity,and freedom.
As Zodiac's letters and crimes accumulated,it became apparent that he reveled in his reign of terror,and intended for it to continue.The unpalatable reality is that we must concede that he had enough good sense and discipline,to maintain his self-preservation.
To fight another day.
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Post by RandolphCarter on Aug 29, 2019 20:02:00 GMT -8
Did the killer go to home of Kenneth Anger and Bobby Beausoleil or the Presidio?
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Post by 1after909 on Jul 10, 2022 19:06:54 GMT -8
Fascinating stuff,Ricardo. One at least gets a sense of the surrounding landscape at L.H.R and B.R.S.P. - slightly more ''sprawling'' than I had first imagined. I took the opportunity of looking at the city map - and had not realized the vastness of The Presidio.I had walked through part of it,about ten years ago - but had not realized how far it stretches back,from the Bay. I was fortunate enough to stay at the Mark Hopkins [?] Hotel - one of the few ''really tall'' buildings in S.F.- The ''Top of the Mark'',a cocktail lounge,is recommended as having the best views of the Bay.I concur ! Great cocktails,as well. The first line in ''Bullit'',is Steve McQueen telling a taxi driver : ''Take me to the 'Mark' ''.
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