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Post by Ricardo on Jun 8, 2014 19:03:17 GMT -8
There are many questions about the reason that the Zodiac killer wore the hood and the dickey with the Zodiac symbol at Lake Berryessa on September 27, 1969.
If the Zodiac killer intended to kill both of the victims, then there was no need to wear a hood.
If Bryan Hartnell had not survived, then no one else would have ever known about the costume.
One theory is that the costume was used in a ritual known only to the Zodiac killer.
Another theory is that the costume might have been worn for the purpose of making a snuff film.
Here is an additional theory...
The Zodiac killer would have realized that he was taking a big risk that he would be apprehended at the crime scene that day.
Maybe he wore the costume because, if he had been captured, then he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory as the Zodiac killer in full regalia.
This motive would have been consistent with the attention that the Zodiac killer craved.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jun 10, 2014 5:56:53 GMT -8
I think he wore the cross hair symbol on his chest for his own ego. He wanted to see if the two potential victims would recognise the symbol as being the symbol of the Zodiac killer because he had wrote letters with that symbol to papers by the time he strikes at Berryessa. I have always believed that he had wondered just how famous he was, or infamous, and it was a game to him to see if they'd recognise him from his 'logo.' If they did recognise the symbol as being that of the Zodiac's, then they would know that this is not a robbery, he hasn't just escaped from Deer Lodge Prison, and he doesn't want their vehicle. They would have known that this man had already attacked two couples in the Bay area, killing 3 and wounding a fourth. If they don't recognise him as Zodiac by his cross hair symbol then that would simply be their fault, and they would then buy his 'I only want you car and money to get to Mexico' ruse. In his mind I would think he reasoned that these two deserved to die if they didn't know who 'HE' was, that's their fault for being ignorant of The Great and News worthy Zodiac Killer.
I don't think there's any question that he intended to Kill both Cecelia & Bryan, that blade was no pen-knife but a kitchen knife, stabbing Bryan 5/6 times in the back with a blade that length it's nothing Zodiac did that contributed to Hartnell's survival, it's almost miraculous that one of the 6 knife plunges did not penetrate a vital organ or major blood vessel. Zodiac did not succeed in killing Bryan, but it wasn't for the want of trying.
Finally, I think he wore the hood over his head because he knew that, with his symbol emblazoned on his chest, the two potential victims may instantly recognise it and become aware of just who it is that stands in front of them and as such, run in absolute fear. I don't think Zodiac would have opened fire out there had they ran because shots fired in a recreational park with park rangers close by isn't attention he would want to draw. I think if they both recognised that cross hairs and knew that was the symbol used by an active killer that targets young couples, they'd have ran and took their chances with being shot at. As I said, I don't think Z would have started shooting and if they recognised him & ran he may very well have let them go as his ego would be satisfied to know that they knew him and his symbol. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jun 11, 2014 12:13:52 GMT -8
Good points WC. It was still daylight and being the coward that he is, I think he covered his face to hide behind a mask that made him feel more powerful. He didn't need it at night, because it was much harder for anyone except Stine to see him. He was only somewhat comforable talking to me when he was dressed as a woman. I could hardly get him to respond to my saying hello to him, when he would come to my job. Sometimes I would repeat myself 2 or 3 times before he would mumble hello in a low voice. He acted as if it was beneath him to talk to me. I think Harnell mentioned that it seemed hard to get him to talk ?
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Post by Ricardo on Jun 15, 2014 0:18:33 GMT -8
The Zodiac killer would not have expected that Hartnell would engage him in a conversation at Lake Berryessa.
I am surprised that Hartnell was able to do it under the circumstances.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jun 20, 2014 11:15:28 GMT -8
The Zodiac killer would not have expected that Hartnell would engage him in a conversation at Lake Berryessa. I am surprised that Hartnell was able to do it under the circumstances.
Well Hartnell was not street wise and slightly naïve and that's not to be critical of him it's just that he was a law student, from a good home who had no previous experience of crime affecting him personally and he said himself that when the guy said he only wanted his car and cash, "I believed him." He also said "I was cooperating with him and I expected he would cooperate with me."
When I first saw Bryans 2007 interview I was shocked at how he recounted the events of Sept. 27, 1969 without any emotion. His comment of "I was taking a sociology class and thought I could maybe (use this experience and) squeeze a paper out of it." Me personally, if I had a masked man pointing a gun at me saying he intends to tie me up, the last thing I'd be thinking of is "I can write an essay about this in my upcoming sociology class exam." No, I'd be too busy trying to think and decide whether to make a break and run for it. But that's just the way Bryan Hartnell is.
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Post by Ricardo on Feb 9, 2015 1:20:54 GMT -8
Well it hasn't escaped my attention that in many of these press articles Kaye is described as 'Handsome' as seen in this feature below: Just reminds me of the description the three girls gave of the man they saw watching them at Lake Berryessa: "Around 40 years of age, good looking. . ." The three girls said he was 25 to 35 , over 6 ft tall and drove a ice blue car like a 1966 Chevy ,which could not have been Zodiac's car, unless he had another smaller car that he could use that day. I say this because of the inside tire measurement of the killers car, which was parked behind Hartnell's car, that had the shoe prints leading to that smaller car. So unless all three of thoses girls were wrong in the car's discription as well as that man, he could not be the killer. I believe that the dentest and his son did see the killer that day. Their discription was closer to what we know. Larry Kane/ Kaye was not a tall man either, his size and age fits Zodiac, more so than a real tall heavy man, who was able to lose almost 100 # in time to kill Paul Stine two weeks later. Being that we know for sure AKA Kane ,Cane,Barton, Kaye used different names , he could have used his friends Kay's name, more so than his friend using Kaye's name. Those two sized suspects ,will always make me think of two different killers. Zodiac was probably a handsome man, I know my suspect was/is. When ever I show the picture I have of one of my suspects , the females always say what a good looking man he is. If it wasn't for is love of killing, I probably would have been attracted to him myself. (Continued in next post…) |
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Post by Ricardo on Feb 9, 2015 1:41:14 GMT -8
Sandy the Girls said the male they saw watching them was Approx. Forty years of age For some reason, there seems to be a discrepancy in the reports regarding the description of the man seen by the three women at Lake Berryessa on September 27, 1969. This is the information according to the report by Narlow and Lonergan: Linda #1 said “approximately 28 years”. (click to see attachment)  Linda #2 said “approximately 30 years”. (click to see attachment)  The report does not clarify what age Joanne said. |
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Post by WelshChappie on Feb 14, 2015 12:54:16 GMT -8
Well Kaye, as demonstrated in many articles in the recent 'Larry Kaye' thread thread, was referred to by Reporters in their articles as 'Handsome' and 'Good Looking' etc. The girls at Berryessa not only said the guy they saw watching them was around 40 years old, but also passed comment on his good looks....
Kane was the masked intruder at Berryessa, I'm confident of that in my own mind & opinion.
Exhibit A... The handsome & Flashy one.....
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Post by WelshChappie on Feb 14, 2015 13:51:19 GMT -8
The Zodiac killer would not have expected that Hartnell would engage him in a conversation at Lake Berryessa. I am surprised that Hartnell was able to do it under the circumstances.
You and me both Rick. If I and a girlfriend of mine were out there and I saw a masked armed man approaching then my lady friend would turn and utter "Oh my God he's got a...." and in turning to me to state this would realize nobody is there and she'd see me running faster than Usain Bolt to the Lake and dive head first into it screaming HELP, HELP, SOMEONE SAVE MY GIRLFRIEND AS I CAN'T DUE TO HAVING ALREADY CHOOSEN TO SAVE MYSELF AND RUN AWAY VERY QUICKLY." Hehe.
Like if you and I Rick ever discovered The Z's home address and found ourselves across the street from 'His' home then i'd be nudging you:
"Well.... Go on Rick, he won't start shooting at you from the vicinity of his own door step, don't be so silly. Now when you knock the door and accuse the owner of being The Zodiac, I shall be over there 6 vehicles down in the Armored Truck. Go on, off you go then...."
:-)
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Sept 30, 2017 21:34:25 GMT -8
I just got off the phone with Ricardo and he suggested that I post what I had just told him. The night of Sept 27th my husband and I were both working in Vallejo. The next morning my eldest daughter told me that a man had come by our home at about 9pm. In the meantime my 4 yr old son had some blood on his head, that the man noticed and told my daughter that he would be happy to take them to "Queen Of the valley" hospital to get my son's head looked at. She noticed lots of police were there at that time. The man had told my daughter that he was there to look at the house , because he heard that it was for sale. My home was not for sale and I don't know who the man was? She said that he drove a black Cad and a woman was with him. She didn't know how my son was injured, because it happened while she was in the other room changing her baby brothers diaper.
I will always wonder if the man caused that injury to my son, so that he could get into that hospital to find out about the victims? Could he have been Zodiac?
It was the next day the 28th or the 29th, when I found the Zodiac costume in the back seat of our brown Bonneville. It was both my husband and my day off. I needed to have the car so I could go buy cake mix and ice cream for my eldest son's 12th birthday.
His birthday is today Sept 30th.
The car was parked at the Soscal House restaurant and bar in Napa, off highway that takes you to Vallejo. My husband was inside playing dice and drinking with his friends. So I had my neighbor Betty drive me to pick up the car. She saw the costume and also thought it was a early Halloween costume.We hadn't heard anything at that time about any murder at Lake Berryessa. That is why I believe we found it on the 28th before the news came out. There wasn't a paper on Sunday and on the 29th when it was in the paper, the description was nothing like what I had found. Certainly I would never think that a killer would choose our car to plant his killing costume in! The part that covered his head was made from a black paper bag, with round cut outs for the eyes. It was wadded up in a ball behind the passengers side of the car floor. The "dicky"part ( That is what Hartnell called it)was about a yard and a half long and 36 inches wide black cotton cloth.In the center front was about a 3 inch circle with a cross over it. It may have been sewn I really don't remember? I do know that however it was done was something that could not be removed easily . I kept it, because I do sew and I save material to use for what ever I may need it for. To this day I have boxes of material saved, some from the 60's.I didn't read about clothes line used to tie the victims up, or I would have thought about our stolen close line. It was exactly like what was used on the victims! Some 15 yrs later or so, the person who took our clothes line , bought me a new one and put it on my front porch.That was when I realized that the costume was not put in our car by mistake, it was all pre-planned to frame my husband for his crimes! But why us? I have no idea why, unless my husband went out with Darlene and that upset Zodiac? Was it pre-planned as far back as July 4th? I ask this because why else did Zodiac make sure that the police knew he was driving a brown car? Our car was brown.
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Post by Nowhereman on Jul 8, 2018 0:42:03 GMT -8
Last thought on Bryan Hartnell, based on the police interview transcript. If he was stabbed first and played dead like he claimed, how was he able to know that Cecelia squirmed all over the place, he describes her attack in detail even her being stabbed and turning over to be stabbed in the groin, not to mention they were face down on the ground. He also states that he saw Zodiac stabbing him in the back while face down. How can he see himself being attacked while tied up face down and then see Cecelia being attacked? Even if his position had changed, how do you play dead and watch that happen without being seen? I don’t care who you are, if he was sitting there playing dead with his eyes open then he’d blink more than once.
Cecelia left the college where she met Bryan 2yrs earlier for a college in Riverside, so 1967 is when she would’ve started there. Cheri Bates was killed towards the end of 1966 there, I’m assuming Cecelia would’ve spoke of her plans and set things in order during the prior semester before leaving for Riverside, wouldn’t that have been around Aug-Dec of 1966, did Bryan ever visit Riverside with her during that time maybe to see the college she was moving to? 1966 would’ve been the time they first went to school together and either dated or were friends, that wasn’t clear to me if they had dated or not. He clearly says friends at one point in the interview but opens with they were seeing each other 2yrs earlier.
He also noted the ingenious mask the Zodiac had made.........huh...why would he give credit for that.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 8, 2018 11:29:51 GMT -8
Bryan did date Cecelia before she went back to Riverside. He was nervous is my guess when he was first interviewed? He was engaged to someone else up in Oregon and didn't want her to think he was more than friends with Cecelia.
My guess about him seeing Cecelia being stabbed, was that Zodiac's back was to him, so he could open his eyes and close them when Zodiac stopped.
I feel sorry for Bryan as a victim, but I don't care for him as being a very good person. I wrote to him around 1987, asking if he could tell me if Cecelia had on a wrist watch and red heart necklace with her name on it?
I sent him a stamped envelope for his reply back to me. (He never bothered to reply) It was important for me to have those questions answered, because they were left in my car with the killing costume. If her watch is missing and if she did have on a red heart necklace before being stabbed, I would want LE to have the watch checked for DNA. I keep what I believe are important to that case in a security box at my bank for safe keeping.
There isn't anything that makes me think someone other than Zodiac did that crime at Lake Berryessa. It was very close to the Edwards /Domingo's case in Santa Barbara county 1963.
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Post by To to to on Aug 30, 2023 5:51:48 GMT -8
Lake Berryessa /Dennis Land Park Ranger was unaccounted for during the murders. He had accomplice call on the pay phone. No Zodiac Killer.
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