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Post by Rubislaw32 on Aug 13, 2015 13:57:37 GMT -8
Such interesting contributions in this section.
WelshChappie's June 10th 2014 psychological assessment resounds so true.The costume was ego based.It was Celia and Bryan's ''fault'' for not recognizing Zodiac.Once Zodiac had decided to attack them,he did so with intention to kill them.Had the couple just fled,Zodiac would probably have not opened fire.
Bryan Hartnell made a gallant attempt to diffuse the situation,but unfortunately overplayed the ''negotiations'' [?].Zodiac's mind reverted back to his own decision making,no longer listening to Hartnell [?].
If anywhere,Lake Berryessa is more responsible for the ''much bigger man'' theory,than any other reported incident.Clearly,this had played on Sgt.Narlow's thoughts,and subsequently took a number of officers,of differing weights and heights,to Lake Berryessa,for experiments on feet depressions.At size 10 1/2,this would be considered ''under average'' for a tall man.And yet he concluded [rightly or wrongly],that the perpetrator at Lake Berryessa was a taller and generally larger man,than previously thought.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Aug 20, 2015 12:26:32 GMT -8
Bryan was clearly an intelligent and observant young man,and,given that Zodiac's face was masked,gave the police a fairly detailed description.
His key failing was height of perpetrator.Initially,he and Celia,though noticing a strange man [prophetic !]lurking,were too polite to really focus on him - then were confronted by Zodiac at near to ground level,until the ordeal was over.
Bryan admitted his failing on height assessment,based on the fact that he is used to always looking down on people.
I have one report that Mr.Hartnell is a ''giant'' at 6ft 10inches.
Can anyone confirm this ?
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Sept 5, 2015 21:01:44 GMT -8
I have found further information on Lake Berryessa,that describes Bryan Hartnell as ''...about 6ft 8in ,and naturally a poor judge of other peoples' height...''.
It is reported that the ''wingwalker'' prints are specifically,the ones found where Zodiac stood to ''mark his scorecard'' on Bryan Hartnell's car.Detective Sgt. Snook ensured that casts were made of these footprints and,apart from make and size[10 1/2],indicated from ''depth'',that Zodiac's weight was approx 225 lbs.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Sept 5, 2015 21:15:22 GMT -8
Further to this...
The three women who spotted a man,at about 40 paces,believed to have been Zodiac,all described him as being over 6ft in height.''good looking'' with curly brown hair.Two of the women took him to be ''about 40 years old'',with the third woman claiming ''closer to 28''.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Nov 23, 2015 4:52:02 GMT -8
I have only recently found a claim [anyone,also ?],that Bryan Hartnell has it on record that Zodiac's hood was ''very well stitched''.
If true,this tends to infer that the hood was made from cloth,as opposed to paper,and that his Berryessa costume was a bit more than ''makeshift'' [?].Perhaps one can imagine that the physical exertions of thrusting a knife into innocents might require a ''robust'' attire,for fear that it not start falling apart on him [?].
This claimed fact also poses a few other questions [?].Did,for example,Zodiac construct the costume himself ? For the times,there is feeling that perhaps he was assisted in making the costume - and possibly by a woman [?].
To counter this,I would say that although ''Home Economics'' was largely seen as the domain of women - skills handed down,generation to generation,and taught in schools,boys and men were not necessarily discounted from these skills.''Arts and Crafts'' were taught in schools to boys and girls equally,and all men entering the military required teaching in upkeep and maintenance of their kit and uniforms.
Living in a ''disposable'' world,as we do today,it's not something that we contemplate readily [?].
I would venture to suggest that Zodiac did not have,nor desired to have,assistance of any sort in his disgraceful ''charades'' at Berryessa - which infers that he did have some ''Home Economics'' skills [?].
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Nov 30, 2015 18:33:19 GMT -8
In a 1969 interview,which was transcribed for the police,Bryan Hartnell describes the top of Zodiac's hood as having four pointed corners - describing the ''design'' as similar to a paper sack - ''not'',that it was actually made of paper.
In more recent years,Mr.Hartnell has referred to the hood/dickie single ensemble as ''properly stitched'' - including the symbol on the front,which he makes a point of emphasizing,was not just marked on.Which one assumes means that it was akin to embroidered [?].
Both Cecilia Shepard and Hartnell noticed ''sweaty'' dark brown hair protruding from the eye sections of the costume,but were unable to describe Zodiac's eyes,on account of dark glasses he was wearing.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Nov 30, 2015 18:54:29 GMT -8
Just as an appendage,one can overlook the fact that Cecilia Shepard was unable to give an account - as it transpires,before attended to by medics,she was able,though in a distraught state.
Found in a fetal position at the foot of a tree,she was quite conscious,though obviously in considerable pain.
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Post by WelshChappie on Dec 1, 2015 6:51:39 GMT -8
Such interesting contributions in this section. WelshChappie's June 10th 2014 psychological assessment resounds so true.The costume was ego based.It was Celia and Bryan's ''fault'' for not recognizing Zodiac.Once Zodiac had decided to attack them,he did so with intention to kill them.Had the couple just fled,Zodiac would probably have not opened fire. Bryan Hartnell made a gallant attempt to diffuse the situation,but unfortunately overplayed the ''negotiations'' [?].Zodiac's mind reverted back to his own decision making,no longer listening to Hartnell [?]. If anywhere,Lake Berryessa is more responsible for the ''much bigger man'' theory,than any other reported incident.Clearly,this had played on Sgt.Narlow's thoughts,and subsequently took a number of officers,of differing weights and heights,to Lake Berryessa,for experiments on feet depressions.At size 10 1/2,this would be considered ''under average'' for a tall man.And yet he concluded [rightly or wrongly],that the perpetrator at Lake Berryessa was a taller and generally larger man,than previously thought. Well in 2007's This is the Zodiac Speaking Documentary Hartnell asserts even all these years later that "The symbolism on it (Hooded overlay) didn't mean anything..... He didn't identify Himself as 'Zodiac." See to Bryan the costume was just that, and worn as He stated "Just something someone was putting over themselves so they wouldn't be recognized.... The Symbolism on it didn't mean anything to me" Not to Bryan it didn't, but the owner wearing it knew what that little white Cross Hairs was representative of, the symbol adopted by a serial killer calling Himself 'Zodiac' who had recently had His letter published by The San Fran Chronicle complete with cross hairs. Anyone taking note and having read the killers letter that had been published in the paper would have observed the letter's author signed off with a cross hairs. So Bryan is incorrect in his comment of 'He didn't identify Himself as Zodiac' because the truth is, He did with that symbol. Bryan just didn't know it.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Dec 1, 2015 8:20:15 GMT -8
Yes,one can overlook the fact that ''Zodiac'' did not mention the word Zodiac until August 4th 1969 - only seven weeks before ''Berryessa''.The symbol had appeared in letters,less than a week prior.
So,it is egotism on a large scale,for Zodiac to expect two young people to be remotely familiar with his identity [?].And yet Zodiac clearly did anticipate this recognition.
I think,as a general observation,young people [even then] are not inclined to read newspapers regularly [?].There are a number of indications that Zodiac was an avid reader,and probably presumed that his notoriety had touched all corners of Northern California,by then - if not beyond [?].
It's a sobering thought that Bryan and Cecilia's failure to recognize Zodiac's symbol [...one that he may have taken time and effort to create...],could have been the difference between life and maiming [?].
Who is really able to account for Zodiac's state of mind,at that time ? But it was certainly ''fragile''.
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Post by WelshChappie on Dec 7, 2015 3:06:36 GMT -8
Well that hood and it's chest overlay with cross Hairs center chest was designed and manufactured for a purpose and that purpose was the victims themselves.
He certainly did not manufacture the hood, carefully sew the trademark symbol for the benefit of anyone else, I am fairly confident He didn't say to himself "I do hope 6 passing speed boats see Me, followed by 2 vehicles upon Knoxville Rd.......even a circling Helicopter! It really is in my best interest to lots of people observe myself dressed in such a sinister looking hood almost identical to the head covering's worn by Executioners as I also point a gun directly at them!"
It can only be designed for the intended victims 'benefit' to satisfy some sort of curiosity on His part and, probably, to observe the potential response of the unfortunate people in the wrong place at the wrong time. He's fully planning remember, to murder both Cecilia AND Bryan so there's can be no question He is wearing in just to watch the fear inb reaction of the 'Victoms' when they see that Symbol and realize who truly is under the hood.
So with the only two people seeing Him dressed like that He fully intents to kill, it's one and one motivation only behind the wearing of it and Bryan is such a lucky guy to survive being knifed Six times...and so are we! Why? Because to this day we would not know of this home made costume He turned up at Berryessa wearing and this incident, had Bryan followed Z's script and died, would be looked at exactly the same way in which LHR is.
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Dec 7, 2015 10:18:17 GMT -8
''Berryessa'' is so bizarre,one can go over and over it time again [...as I do...].
I am certainly persuaded by your synopsis,WelshChappie,that Bryan and Cecilia were always destined for a physical attack.Zodiac was ''all tooled up'',including clothes line ties - which lends further credence to the ''ultra'' pre-planned element.
Zodiac's initial delay in assaulting,had more to do with his surprise of non-recognition by the couple.Perhaps Hartnell's attempts to diffuse the situation were always to be futile [?].
What were the ''benefits'' of a well made costume for Zodiac ? Was it ''self worth'' ? Probably - plus the thrill of Bryan and Cecilia going to their deaths,with the knowledge of their executioner's intended identity.
What of the ''if they had just fled'' scenario ? Would Zodiac have used his gun ? That's difficult to answer with confidence...but I would suggest that he targeted a couple on the basis of likelihood that they would not flee - he banked on their sense of mutual security.
Indeed,we would never have known about Zodiac's costume,if Bryan and Cecilia had died,then and there.But we might have guessed that ''masking'' of some sort took place,since opportunities for the couple to escape were greater than in the previous two attacks.We would have known that Zodiac tied them up and stabbed them - a more complicated and ''intimate operation''.Was Zodiac,under these circumstances,really that confident of ''success'',in its entirety ?
The ''scorecard'' on Hartnell's door was Zodiac's celebration of success...his reward...that which he actually left behind.
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Post by WelshChappie on Nov 11, 2017 15:10:07 GMT -8
I have always assumed Z wore that outfit with a centered Cross-Hair stitched neatly into the center of the front overlay for the purpose of ego. I have always had a suspicion that, while I happily admit to having no evidence or grounds to show for it being anywhere near factual or true, Zodiac wore that costume with the cross-hair for His ego's curiosity in that the cross-hair by then was a known and published signature of the man police were calling 'Zodiac.'
And thus, if the victims were aware of events recently published in The Chronicle, The Times, and a number of other published newspapers then they would know, upon sighting His symbol, just who it actually was that was standing in front of them. If they did recognize or associate the symbol with Him as 'Zodiac',well then they'd also be aware that what He's just told them is a load of crap and He in certainly not a recent escapee from Deer lodge Prison in Montana nor, therefore you would likely assume, does He wish to steal your vehicle then immediately flee to Mexico!
If these people do not recognise the symbol as being the known sign or signature that the San Francisco Zodiac Killer has adopted and uses then, well then that isn't his fault, but theirs for bring ignorant of The most important recent top stories or front page (as he himself has demanded the ciphers be published) on front page as headlines! I imagine that He, in His own mind anyway, reasons that they, the victims themselves are responsible for their own doom because the the onus to recognise the clue he's given is on them, the 'victoms.'
I always see His ego informing itself that they deserved to die. He, in his warped & irrational mind and misplaced reasoning, was giving these victims a chance by offering them the opportunity to recognize Him from that symbolic cross hair and as such, make their escape from Him.
I would think He'd have to know or, at an absolute minimum, would make an assumption, that recognition of Symbolism being that of an active serial killer is going to likely result in the two individuals attempting to get away instantly.
An acknowledging of His having and pointing a weapon at them is now far less threatening if/when you know that if you comply and stay put it means certain death. If You are certain that this man is going to kill you if you allow yourself to be controlled and bound on the ground then, well then him pointing a weapon at you is not such a threatening means of ensuring compliance.
I don't know about others but I Myself would be sprinting in the opposite direction gun pointed at Me or not . . . I'd know to stay there and comply = certain death so, what do You have to lose by attempting to escape?
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Post by WelshChappie on Jan 2, 2018 14:24:03 GMT -8
Rub: This is simply an opinion speaking. . .
It is simply My opinion that had Bryan or Cecelia, or both, looked at thee man walking briskly toward them and recognized him as an active Serial Killing lunatic that has attacked Twice in two incidents where The targets were young couples alone and killed three of the Four targets of his rage then... in my personal opinion.... they would not have been so willing to comply with the hooded intruder.
And if they had then made a dash for freedom, or ran for their very lives. . . Absent a silencer. . . I don't believe for a moment He would respond by opening fire on a fleeing Bryan and Cecelia.
He may as well have began setting off distress flairs to give rangers his location as a hooded menacing looking looney who been observed shooting at two young people fleeing in terror.
"Hey Park Ranger pig, I was on the island hiding behind a lone tree and you were using police divers to approach The Island seeing who can make the most distance without causing bubbles!"
In all seriousness, I don't see how he can even begin to believe that He could and would have opened fire out there and believe he can then have the most remote possibility of getting away from the Island, let alone, Lake Berryessa itself.
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Post by WelshChappie on Jan 2, 2018 16:13:49 GMT -8
Bryan Hartnell told once how his Receptionist in His office called and asked Him could he come to His office after defending a client in court as there was a gentleman there who seemed very distressed and Sai He knew Mr Hartnell and needed his help and representation in an upcoming case. Hartnell asked His office Receptionist "He and I know each other? What is this persons Name?" Bryan said that this is the only time he felt fear overcome him as his Receptionist replied: "He wi not tell me his name, but He says you both were victims of the same killer Zodiac. . . ."
Bryan, concerned for His staff rushed to his office and sitting in the waiting area a voice greeted: Hey, How are you, Bryan. . . I'm Michael, Michael Mageau!"
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Post by Rubislaw32 on Jan 3, 2018 16:02:12 GMT -8
That's an interesting story,regarding Hartnell and Mageau,WelshChappie.
Recently,I had another look at Lake Berryessa,from a ''bird's eye'' view photograph.
That spot,where Bryan and Cecilia were ''sunbathing'' [....it was actually breezy,and a bit overcast,I believe....] is a very narrow and elongated ''headland''.
So,one can understand why Zodiac ''targeted'' there.He had picked a quiet day of the week,and was probably stalking the headland,waiting for a couple to use it.
There would be,at least,a psychological sense of cutting the couple off,for Zodiac....and a sense of ''entrapment'',for the couple....apart from taking to the water,perhaps [?].
Hartnell has intimated,that thoughts of making a dash for it,did cross his mind....and even after knowledge that Zodiac had a gun.But,of course,there was the question of how he was going to flee,with the responsibility of Cecelia also.
So,I believe that it is generally agreed that Zodiac targeted a couple deliberately...knowing that the male's ''honour'' and true sense of responsibility,was at stake.Hartnell feels,therefore,that he would have attempted to flee had he been on his own.....but then,Zodiac wouldn't have targeted him,had he been alone.
Then it comes down to : ''Would Zodiac have used his gun,if he felt it necessary ? ''......as you have intimated,WelshChappie.
I am inclined to believe that Zodiac's gun was loaded...but he was hoping that he would not have to use it.
One of the reasons being,that even on a day,of far from perfect weather,I believe the acoustics of that beauty spot,are very acute......and would have alerted the attention of rangers....and possibly any of the ''sparse'' numbers of the public,visiting that day [?].
The ''rather chilling'' facts of the matter are,that Zodiac's intentions,that day.....was to try his hand,at being a ''butcher'',as opposed to a ''gunman''.
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